Lauren Hom and Rachael Renae kick off the pod by discussing their personal relationships with creativity, common obstacles to starting, and insights on how they follow the fun on their creative paths.
Lauren Hom and Rachael Renae kick off the pod by discussing their personal relationships with creativity, common obstacles to starting, and insights on how they follow the fun on their creative paths. They also chat about what exactly makes someone a 'chaotic creative' and why it's worth celebrating (and laughing about).
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The transcript for this episode can be found here!
Lauren: Welcome to Chaotic Creatives, a show about embracing the chaos that comes from pursuing a creative life.
Rachael: We are your hosts: two self-proclaimed chaotic, creative gals. I am Rachel, also known as Rachael Renae on Instagram. I'm your Internet hype gal, and I love encouraging folks to use color and creativity to live a confident, fulfilling life.
Lauren: And I am Lauren Hom also known as Hom Sweet Hom on Instagram. I am a designer muralist and all-around crafty girl who also just graduated from culinary school.
Rachael: Woo!
Lauren: I feel like we're the definition of multi-passionate.
Rachael: Yeah, right. 100%. And embracing that is why we're here to have these conversations because we talk about this stuff in our personal lives every time we hang out.
Lauren: Yeah. I mean, we've been friends for five, six, seven years!?
Rachael: A long time. Wow.
Lauren: Woah. I just feel like the longer we've hung out, the deeper our conversations have gone, and we just kind of bounce back and forth around the same kind of topics: creativity and authenticity and confidence and embracing like your curiosities. Just thought it would be fun to share that with other people.
Rachael: Yeah. Like, do we want to start with what we think creativity means or how it has manifested itself in our lives?
Lauren: Sure.
Rachael: Okay.
Lauren: I feel like this is the equivalent of the Miss America “making the world a better place” thing.
Rachael: Yes.
Lauren: World peace. Yeah.
Rachel: Yes. That's it. We're done.
Lauren: What does creativity mean to me?
Rachel: Sure, or you can rephrase the question. It doesn't have to be like that.
Lauren: Define creativity.
Rachael: Get out your Merriam-Webster dictionary. Pick your definition.
Lauren: I mean, I've always been a creative person. For me, creativity is the ability to ask a lot of questions and be curious about something; but then have the follow through to explore how it works, to have the bravery to find the answers. And obviously it manifests as “how do I make something?” or “how can I express this in some kind of visual medium?”
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: But I've always been a curious kid and I think—I'm like a self-proclaimed tinkerer. So, creativity for me is just the ability to have an idea in my head and then make it with my hands. And that is just so gratifying.
Rachael: Yeah. Did you ever take things apart as a kid? Were you that kind of tinkerer or where, you know, I see something I want to make that.
Lauren: I was not a ripper aparter.
Rachael: Okay, not a destroyer.
Lauren: I understand that, too. I was like a sandcastle builder, mud pie maker... You see something, especially as a kid, and you're just like, “how can I change this or use this to make something?”
Rachael: Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren: More of like, a upcycler…
Rachael: Sure. Sure. Wow. So progressive of you as a young child. Incredible. Yeah, I feel the same way; Always a creative kid. I loved using markers and crayons, and was always drawing, and making stuff out of paper. Always loved paper, I was really obsessed with the notepads that a server would use at a restaurant.
Lauren: Like the check. Or…
Rachael: Yeah, I just wanted pads of paper, like customized pads. I still love them.
Lauren: No surprise then, that you ended up doing stationery for a while.
Rachael: Yeah, absolutely. And I think starting a stationery business was really my way to just make whatever products I wanted. And then when I had to keep making them for other people, I was like, “this isn't fun anymore.”
Lauren: Yeah.
Rachael: But yeah, I also was a creative kid and I think my path for pursuing creativity took a detour where I think I pushed it down and was like, “this doesn't— I don't need to do this.” Not in a in a conscious way, I was never like, “I'm done being creative,” but I was distracted by pursuing societal expectation of getting a real job and pursuing college, and a career. And I was really miserable; not miserable, I was just yearning for more.
Lauren: You knew something was missing.
Rachael: Yes. Yes. Like I was not unhappy, but it didn't feel like it was enough. And what I now can articulate is that it's because I buried down my creativity; and then I kind of flew to the other side of the spectrum and I was like: “I have to quit my job and I have to build a creative career right now. I need to learn everything I can.” And I think I started to kind of pursue creative expression by taking classes and starting a stationary business; but then it was that. It was: “I have to make this business. This has to be my career. That's how I'll be happy.” And that isn't the case.
Lauren: Yeah, I think this is a product of… this is probably a little bit after before we met. We met in 2017. We were coming off an era of Internet culture where you were consuming and I was consuming a lot of “if you don't quit your job to pursue your passion, like you've done it wrong.”
Rachael: Yeah, yeah.
Lauren: It was just a very pro freelancer, small business owner era of people genuinely doing that and being excited about it. But maybe we went too far in one way where it's like, “this is the only way. This seems like the only way.” It's like an all or nothing— it was a very all or nothing kind of mindset. It was like the, “f*** your 9 to 5” kind of mentality. And I was a product of this; I used to consume that content back in like 2012.
Rachael: Yeah, man the internet was different back then.
Lauren: Wow yeah, but if it's working for you and you see a path like— that was my path where I was like, “I'm gonna leave...”
Rachael: Whoops! Sorry, just ignore that spill…
Lauren: It's okay, but that was my path where I was like, “I'm going to leave my full-time job and give this freelancing thing a try.” I was early enough along in my career where I was nine months into my advertising job where it didn't feel like I had a lot to lose.
Rachael: What a lovely gestation period of nine months.
Lauren: Basically! Yeah, and I was just like, “I'm 23. If I flop freelancing, what's the difference between getting another entry-level full-time job at 24 than 23?” So, it was easy for me to kind of float between things at that time; but it worked out for me. I think that I'm an example of the path that people thought they needed to take in order for their creative journey to be valid, which is profiting from it and being known for it. But it's definitely not the case.
Rachael: Totally. I mean, that is how we met because I was a fan of your work… and you know this story, but I will describe it for listeners and viewers. You were scouting for places to move to, is that correct?
Okay. And you tried out Detroit and I was like, “hey, come visit. I would love to get a coffee with you.” And we hit it off as pals, which is lovely. And I remember thinking like: “Wow, this is exactly what I want. I just, I want to work for myself.”
But I didn't necessarily have the vision of what I wanted to do. I did hand lettering (obviously, that's why I was a fan of yours), and stationery. I think what I realized (because that's like the better part of a decade now, unreal) is that for me, I can't stick with one thing. I am a multi-passionate creative, a chaotic creative because my interest bounces so much; and if I don't have like a super strong interest in it, it's hard for me to push forward. So, when my stationery business got to a certain point where I was selling wholesale and kind of just reproducing designs or hitting the industry standards for releasing new products that didn't feel creative and inspiring to me; it felt like a chore.
Lauren: …a business.
Rachael: On top of my full-time job. It was just like, “Why am I doing this? I'm not making enough money to support myself and quit my job and I'm not enjoying the time creating.” So, all my creative energy was going toward that; so when I slowly over time stopped my stationery business, I realized that for me— at least right now, my path is I want to do creative hobbies for personal fulfillment. And I feel like I have experienced so much personal growth through just quilting stuff and taking ceramics classes and being bad at it. And it's so much more about the experience of playing with creative expression for me now. And that is also valid. I think that's really why we're here, to say there is no one path toward living a creative life because we both are, and it looks very different.
Lauren: Yeah, absolutely. I feel like the thesis of this podcast is there's no wrong way to be creative, maybe the antithesis of the 2012 kind of culture.
Rachael: We really swung to the other side.
Lauren: It’s hilarious how the pendulum really does thing though because I feel like we're just exiting very like anti-monetizing your creativity era of like, “I just want to do hobbies.” And the truth is, there is a full spectrum in between those two things. You can monetize a little bit. You can monetize not at all.
I think it's up to us as creative people to be curious about those things and then discern what is right for us right now.
Rachael: Yeah…
Lauren: …and to… what I going to say about… you said something that was going to set me up and then I took us off the rails.
Rachael: That’s okay; We love to veer from the path.
Lauren: Was that something about ceramics, like…
Rachael: Being bad at something.
Lauren: Bad at something! Yes! And I think oftentimes the fear of being bad at something, even though, you know, you're like, “oh! ceramics looks fun” or “oh! quilting looks fun,” the thought of not doing it perfectly stops a lot of people from trying.
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: You've mentioned to me that a lot of people in your audience have confided in you that they're overwhelmed with getting started. And I think that was kind of why we decided to start this podcast.
Rachael: And why we're okay with kind of just starting. You know, we're recording this with microphones, obviously but also just on a phone. And we didn't necessarily nail down an introduction because we're like, “let's just start.”
Lauren: Yeah, we wrote the introduction for this podcast 15 minutes before we started recording. I think there's this checklist that you think you need to go through and if you just cross all your T's and dot all your I’s and get everything perfect in the planning phase, then nothing can possibly go wrong in the execution phase; but that's not true.
Rachael: Yeah!
Lauren: No matter how much you plan, things are going to evolve and change. So, we wanted to start imperfectly.
Rachael: Yeah. And I know that from my personal experience, I loved (and I still do it) to get caught up in that planning phase because I think I'm being productive…
Lauren: It scratches the itch.
Rachael: Yeah. And I'm like, “well, if I can just line it up and I know I need to buy this tool and I need to get this supply and then I get myself set up, then I'll be ready to start.” And I have stalled myself from starting so many things, whether they're creative or not, because I'm like, “Well, I'm not ready yet,” or “I need to take this course.”
And I have overcome a lot of the need for validation from, from education; because a lot of times in my past, I talked myself out of saying I was a creative or an artist because I was like, “Well, I didn't go to art school; but if I take this class from this creator and pay $500 for this…” and it's on your own time and you never watch it.
“…then I will feel valid enough to start this hobby or start this business.” And truly, everyone says this and it's so hard to take this advice of just starting. So yeah, we're really trying to take this advice here with us today and just start and just gab.
[Music]
Rachael: I've been talking about quilting a lot and it's something that I learned how to do through Instagram, watching someone do a walkthrough of a quilting project. And so many people say, “that's really intimidating.” And it is if you're thinking, “I need to produce this really nice, beautiful quilt at the end.” But if you're thinking about it like, “how fun will it be to just piece these things together?” Start with small pieces of fabric and it turns into something like a functional piece of art, and it doesn't have to be good. I made this and there are so many flaws with it; but it's wearable, it's usable.
Even if it wasn't, I still enjoyed the process of sewing these things together. I feel like that's the part that we need to kind of shift as a collective to think about: the process is what's enjoyable. Obviously, if we're making a beautiful product and you're making your living from creating that amazing.
Lauren: Like a level of quality and like then you can start thinking in that regard. But when you're just getting started, I know it's painful, but you almost have to expect it to be worse than you want it to be. It is going to be worse than you want it to be. And I think that's part of the inner turmoil of being a creative person too. What's that phrase? Your eyes are bigger than your stomach?
Rachael: Oh yeah. And walk through what you said earlier when we were talking about our homes.
Lauren: Oh yes, like—wait, with the tiles?
Rachael: …the disconnect of like just in the gap, I guess. The skill gap.
Lauren: So, I believe it’s an Ira Glass quote; I need to fact check myself on this after the fact. But it was a talk that someone gave about creativity and why it's so painful, because when you start out with anything you've probably consumed videos, photos, you've seen all the things that you want to make. Let’s use quilting as an example, you’ve seen all the beautiful quilts on Instagram and your taste level is here, but your skill level is here, like low.
So, there's this huge gap in between. And logically, the only way to bridge the gap is to gradually get better and work your way towards these two things aligning. But it's so painful to go through that process because your eyes and your brain know what you want it to look like, but your hands are just not capable of doing that yet.
You mentioned, ceramics, and you and I were taking the same kind of ceramics classes for a while. You got me into that studio that we were in. And when you go to throw on a wheel for the first time, you know what a nice vase looks like. You have one in your house.
Rachael: Yeah. And they make it look so easy.
Lauren: They really do. It's so satisfying to watch, throwing videos on the internet and then you go to do it and you don't have the muscle memory; you don't know where to apply pressure; and you end your first ceramics class with a bunch of lumpy cups. But that's just what it's going to be. And my very first teacher, Leah, mentioned that learning how to throw on a wheel is like learning how to play an instrument.
That really took some of the pressure off it for me because as a professional designer I went into ceramics thinking, “I'm going to be good at this already.” I was like, “I got this.”
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: …and I did not have it; but I have learned how to play an instrument before, and I know the process for that…
Rachael: What instrument?
Lauren: I played the flute.
Rachael: Amazing. I didn't know that I played the saxophone.
Lauren: Well, I think this is gonna turn into a...
Rachael: …start a little jazz band. Please, never. No, no one wants to hear that. Okay, so you had that confidence because you had learned an instrument before and…
Lauren: Not necessarily the confidence, but the point of reference. The first time you pick up any musical instrument, even if you've spent the last decade listening to music, you know you're going to sound like shit.
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: But for some reason with visual arts, especially for someone like me who has a level of expertise in one domain in the visual arts, I just thought it was going to transfer more easily.
And it's a completely different set of muscles that you're working with each new medium that you pick up.
Rachael: And I think this is a perfect example of like— even if you are making your living as a designer or you're in a creative field, you can still try new things at any time. And I think people kind of get stuck. Another thing that I've heard from my audience, and I've been asking these questions a lot: “why aren't you doing it?”
And that sounds condescending, but I'm asking myself those questions too. Why am I not doing the thing that I'm interested in? Because I'm intimidated; because it feels like it's too late to learn a new skill, but none of that is true. We're allowed to be bad at something and grow that skill. Or you can try it and recognize that it's not for you.
I have a really good experience I used to talk about when I used to teach hand lettering, which is such a low barrier to entry point you know what I'm trying to say? A skill to try…
Lauren: An easily accessible—like pick up a pen and paper...
Rachael: Exactly, you can probably find an instrument to practice hand lettering anywhere in any room basically. So, I would always say that to my classes. You're trying this out; if you hate it, the worst is you spent 40 bucks on this class and then you…
Lauren: You got out of the house.
Rachael: You got to have some wine and some snacks, and chat with new people, and listen to my jokes. Lucky you.
But you learned something. It's still a valuable experience, even if you hated it, because now that's out of your brain. And I did this with leaded glass, like stained glass class. I signed up for a class with a couple of my friends and it was a six-week thing. We went every week, cut the glass, soldered the pieces together, came up with your design, did all of the things.
At the end of the course, we all bought all the stuff. So, I bought the saw to cut the glass, bought a bunch of glass (which is expensive in itself), soldering iron, my safety glasses. And the first time I set it all up at home to do it, I was like, “I don't like this. I'm not having fun. I'm stressed out. My body is clenched so tight,” and I was like, “I actually just had fun seeing my friends at the same day and time every week.” So, one of my friends did end up kind of really loving it and I sold her all my stuff; but that was still a valuable experience because I learned, okay, this is not one of my creative hobbies, and that's okay.
It wasn't a waste.
Lauren: Yeah you have to try it. And you were curious enough about it to try it. And I think you're building resilience and like that skill being like, I am curious about this. I'm going to try it. That is building confidence to do that with other things.
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: And like you said, what is a worst-case scenario? You spent an afternoon or even six afternoons learning how to do something like honing your fine motor skills. You learned something from it that you'll take with you. And sure, if push came to shove, now you can do stained glass. Like if someone was like “make this stained glass right now!”
Rachael: Now! Or Else!
Lauren: It's just one of those like… skills that you can have in your back pocket. It doesn't mean you have to pursue it 100%.
Rachael: It also gives you perspective when you're trying something like that, when you see other art out in the world, you can appreciate. Now I know any time I see any glass that's pink or red, it's very expensive because you use gold to make pink or red glass.
Lauren: What?
Rachael: Yeah. So, you learn these little things and then that shifts your perspective on the world, whether you're doing the thing or not, silly...
Lauren: Worst case scenario, you have a fun party fact.
Rachael: Yeah!
Lauren: Or like that's a good question. Like when you're on like a game show that like, ends up getting you the prize money, who knows?
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: But that reminds me of something that you and I have talked about because I will always tell the story of how it's very similar to when I was a kid. My mom had this rule in the house.
Kids usually don't like to try new foods like, especially if they're green. And my mom had a rule that was: you can't say you don't like it unless you've tried it. And nine out of ten times we try the green thing and be like, “oh it's actually fine,” Or like, we like it, but the ones that you don't like totally fine, like your tastes can change.
I didn't like kale when I was a kid. I didn't even know what kale was when I was a kid. No bitter greens. But now it's like, that's the thing.
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: And like, your palate adjusts as you get older.
Rachael: Totally.
Lauren: And of course, there's many food analogies we can make; but I was going to make a comment earlier on when you were talking about your quilted shirt vest? Your shest?
Rachael: My “shest.” I've been calling it a bib.
Lauren: You’re adult bib.
Rachael: My adult bib. One of my coworkers asked me today. He was like. “What is that called?” And I was like, “I don't know. I made it. I just made it up in my brain. I've been calling it a bib vest.”
Lauren: It's really great. To the untrained quilter’s eye, I'm not a quilter; I don't even sew. I can't see any flaws. Like, to me it looks perfect.
Rachael: Because it is perfect, actually.
Lauren: But this reminds me of something I've been talking to a lot of people about. The creative chaos that ensues quietly in your brain when you're just alone doing your stuff can be very tormenting.
Rachael: That was lyrics to an emo song, what you just said— I'm going to interrupt you because I'm like, Wow.
Lauren: Thank you.
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: Yeah. See, all my interests are coming through and synthesizing.
Rachael: Converging, yeah. Sorry to interrupt you.
Lauren: Now I’m thinking about Converge the band. Anyways, what was I saying about the quilt?
Rachael: The quiet chaos of your brain?
Lauren: Yes, but when you're so close to the work, you're always going to think that it's worse than it is. You're not going to be able to see a throughline. You alone are going to be the most critical person of your work.
But when you go and interact with other people, whether it's in a workshop, or a class, or even just wear your adult bib that you quilted out into the world and you get compliments on it, or people ask you about it—you realize, “oh it's actually better than I thought it was.” And I think you can build confidence that way if you create alongside other people or just let your work interact with other people besides you.
Rachael: That's such a good point. And I think I'm really good at kind of powering through and just finishing something and hacking it together. That is my brain. I am not a details person. I want fast projects, projects that I can knock out.
Lauren: A weekend project?
Rachael: Yeah, I did this in a haze in like four days. I was just like, “this is the only thing I can think about!” Hyper fixation…
Lauren: That sounded lyrical too: “a haze in four days.”
Rachael: Yeah, haze in four days. We're also writing music in this now for our jazz band, our emo jazz band.
Lauren: There's got to be a great name for an emo jazz band.
Rachael: That must exist.
Lauren: We’re not gonna come up with it right now.
Rachael: No, but it'll happen. Feel free to submit your Emo jazz band names to us and it'll live in the abyss because we'll probably forget by the time we record another episode.
But I think I follow a lot of quilters online that are so— their corners are so precise. It's the same thing with the glass analogy. Once you know how to do something, you pay attention to things that other people don't pay attention to. But at the same time, I think if another quilter saw this, they would think either like “Cool, good job,” or “okay, I can see some of the flaws. This must be a beginner. I'm so excited that this person is also interested in this thing.” I think we're, like you said, our worst critics. Also, how I would approach someone being interested in something that I'm interested is like, “Hell, yeah.”
There's no gatekeeping. We don't need to do that. I want you to be excited about this thing too. And so even if someone did notice the flaws, if they were critical, that's a them problem. You know, if they're interested in the thing and they see that you are and that your skill level is less than theirs, they should be like, “Come on up. I'm jazzed. You're doing it.” Does that make sense?
Lauren: Totally.
Rachael: I think we create these stories in our in our brains of, “well, I'm going to be bad at this and everyone's going to know.” And who cares if everyone knows? You know?
[Music]
Lauren: I've always talked about how… I think this is a very popular thing amongst people our age and older of “thank goodness we didn't have social media when we were like super young.” I liken this to when I started lettering in college. The stuff I was posting wasn't technically good, but I was so excited to be lettering and sharing it online because I think I hadn't consumed a ton of other lettering.
I knew about it, and I read some design blogs; but I wasn't scrolling through, like I wasn't on Instagram yet. I was just on Tumblr.
Rachael: And it was kind of like the resurgence of calligraphy and hand lettering at that time.
Lauren: Yeah, totally. So, my bar of “is this good enough to post” was non-existent because I was just so excited to share it in a way that is much more difficult for me now. Because I think my brain has consumed so much more stuff, which is not bad, but I have had access to view so many more beautiful, well-executed creative projects.
Rachael: And that's another thing about the change in the Internet from that time. Like back in 2012, we posted whatever.
It wasn't a curated portfolio like it is now; and I don't think either is correct or it's bad either way, but it's just different. So, what we're seeing is these polished final products and then that's what we're comparing our beginner steps to. Well, there are so many steps in between that people can't post because if they want to post a reel, it has to be 10 seconds now. And our attention spans just don't handle the actual time it takes to make something.
But, I think the confidence of just… when the enthusiasm overwhelms any sort of self-doubt you have, follow that. You know, follow that fun as you say. Follow the fun.
Lauren: Follow the fun. And the enjoyment of the process is…
Rachael: That’s the goal.
Lauren: That's the goal, like with ceramics, to bring it back to that. It's not like I ever shared (and no one owes anyone sharing) the early stages of you learning something either. If you don't think it's good enough to post, you don't have to post it.
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: I think it's helpful to recognize that the things, the finished products you're seeing on Pinterest or Instagram— that might be someone's year three of doing that and you just didn't get to see the rest of it and that's fine. I don't think I ever posted the only ceramics I've ever posted were from a year two or three, because I wasn't ready. And I don't want anyone to think that that's where I started.
Rachael: Yeah. Like maybe you had that vision, but there was that gap where your skill set was not where your vision was.
Lauren: Totally.
Rachael: And so you had to build that.
Lauren: For me, it's been so helpful to— you know, I've been freelancing mostly solo for a decade. Now, I have Kristle in the studio with me which is lovely.
But when you're isolated, it can be lot. It's actually good for your creativity, especially if you're trying something new; I love signing up for a class because you get to do it alongside other beginners and you're not in the abyss of an online space.
You're in a room with 8 to 12 people all struggling with the same thing. And sure, there might be someone in the class who's more advanced or whatnot, but it's really humanizing and humbling and grounding to be around people who are also learning.
Rachael: And encouraging…
Lauren: Because that's the environment. You're in an environment where you expect people not to know and you're not expected to know. Whereas when you're online, it feels like everything— this is just me, 'll speak for myself. It can oftentimes feel like I can't post something until I'm sure it's good or unless I have expertise or can answer questions about it.
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: When the space of a classroom is just like, we're all figuring this out together.
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: And I spend so much of my time around professional creatives, but it's nice to be in an environment where not everyone in ceramics is there to do it professionally. I'm not even there to do it professionally. It's just a fun hobby that, sure, I could sell a piece or two. I haven't tried yet, but that's not the goal of it.
Maybe because I've been doing design for so long that I can't fathom how to make money from pottery.
Rachael: Yeah, I did experiment when I was sort of at (without realizing it) the end of my stationery business. That's when I started ceramics, and I was building things, and I was incorporating a lot of my lettering work into my pottery. And it, it felt very cohesive. I felt like the things that I was creating were a unified body of work.
And I did sell things that I made, and I was still kind of doing the craft fair circuit. And I remember bringing ceramics to some and it shifted how I created because then I would go into the studio and I would be like, “All right, I have three months until my next thing. I got to crank out a bunch of mugs and I got a carve ‘em.”
And then I stopped doing the carving and I just did paintings because it was faster. The pieces weren't as cool and it's just so interesting how the desire to be productive and to make money had shifted my creative expression.
Lauren: Yes.
Rachael: And I stopped doing pottery and I stopped doing stationery; and then I probably went a year at least— a couple of years, and I missed it so much. I only recently have gotten back into it, and I go in strictly with the idea that I'm going to play; I'm going to have no expectations. I'm going to make a weird thing that doesn't even have to look cool esthetically. But as long as I'm having fun while I'm doing it, and I'm not frustrated with this process, or trying to crank things out to make this for this person or to sell this— it's shifted it back to fun and play like prioritizing the play.
Lauren: You're enjoying finding out the answer to your question of like, “what would happen if I tried this? What would happen if I tried this? Like, it didn't work; maybe I'll go this way.” That's the enjoyable part.
Rachael: Yes. The curiosity and like keeping that which is a core value to me— keeping that at the forefront instead of letting sort of our capitalist society distort how I'm thinking about what I'm creating. Because I think a lot of a lot of us are thinking that. I saw a meme on Instagram.
Obviously…
Lauren: …a meme in the wild…
Rachael: A meme out as a billboard, I guess, but it could happen. But no, it was on Instagram, and it was… I'm going to butcher it; But it said something along the lines of how “sad that our society has evolved to think that humans singing, dancing, and making art is for the purpose of making money and becoming good at it instead of it just being something that we do as humans, like birds sing and bees make hives. Humans dance and sing and make art because that is core to our nature.”
And so many people that I talk to say that they're not creative. And I'm like, but we all are. It may not be in the way that you and I are colorful and have a yellow kitchen or are making ceramics or doing sort of like traditional art.
Lauren: We have the aesthetics of creative girls.
Rachael: We do. We are your creative girlies! But I think that it can express itself in so many different ways: how someone is cooking a meal is creativity, how someone is organizing their home, or is swinging a tennis racket. If you're channeling the curiosity that is the creativity.
Lauren: Yeah, absolutely.
Rachael: You just have to allow yourself to find it.
Lauren: That reminds me of a what is it? Oh! It was Alan Watts giving a talk about, like pursuing your passions. And he had a quote, in there about— "it's called playing the piano not working the piano.”
Rachael: OH! I just got goosebumps. Wow.
Lauren: Or we were talking earlier about how there's this… like, when you think about sandcastles or mud pies as a kid, right?” There's this curiosity about, “how can I play with this material? It's not like you—even though as a child, you know what a pie looks like. You know your mud pie’s not gonna look like a real pie.
Rachael: Yeah! Oh my gosh, I love to use this example when I'm talking about playing and kind of tapping into that energy of play that kids have. Like if you can envision like a hyper little kid who is a performer naturally, like they're meant to be performing. You know, in my head I'm at a backyard barbecue. I don't know why I had to create this whole visual for this… I guess, made up scenario.
But, you see the kid and they're putting on a performance for you. They're playing every part. They're acting out different characters. The plot makes no sense. You know, they're bad at singing and they are still having the best time. And it's not like some adult— well, some adults might do this, but hopefully there are no adults being like, “you can't play every part, and your plot makes no sense, and your play isn't good, and you're off pitch…” Like…
It's not about the outcome. It's not about the play that this child has crafted in their head. It's about them having fun.
Lauren: Yeah. And I think what you mentioned about when you started making ceramics with the purpose of selling them and markets, it shifts your focus on what pieces can I produce fast? Like you think about profit margins; and this is just a different part of your brain that you're using that doesn't always feel good or gratifying to apply to your creativity. Also, from a practical standpoint, some creative practices are easier to monetize than others. I just graduated from culinary school because I've always wanted to go, but I knew going in that doing graphic design is less work and more profitable than cooking… like, feeding people for money, at least in my current time.
But it doesn't mean… it didn't mean I didn't want to go. I still love to cook. And even within the visual arts, certain things are just easier from a shipping perspective—like to sell a digital product versus a physical product. These are all considerations, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't pursue something if you can't make money from it.
Rachael: Right. Especially if, your interests keep coming back to that. Eevery time I come over, you have a new beverage for me to try or you make me dinner and that is something that I never do. I'm always like, “What friend will feed me dinner?” Because I don't want to make it for myself. But…
Lauren: You’re like a stray cat!
Rachael: I truly am! I’m like, “Help me. I’m hungry. Do you have any food? What kind of snacks?” And so many of my friends thankfully love to cook and that is a creative expression for you, and for me it's something else. Like, I love to host a party. I want to create the aesthetics and the experience, but I need somebody else to make the food; because I can do it… I'm not going to enjoy it.
And I think it's just you have to try. You have to get past the FFTs, which is what my therapist references a lot when I'm nervous about things: “the fucking first times.” You just have to get past it because everyone's experiencing that. And even in like noncreative ways we experience that.
I just started playing basketball again because I loved it as a kid and this is like a perfect way. I think for us to— if you're yearning like I was for this sort of creative life or more fulfilling life: what did you like to do as a kid? Like what things was it making mud pies? Maybe you should try taking a cooking class.
Was it playing a sport? Like when was the last time that I played basketball? It's been years and I love it. And I still love it. And I saw somebody post like, Hey, I want to get a casual group together. And I was like, Wow, I only know that person and no one else; I'm still going to show up.
I'm the only woman and I having a blast. It fills me up for the whole day. I'm just still high on that experience of playing and I just feel like if we can get past that fear of showing up and not knowing anyone, people are nice.
Generally, people are wanting you to be there. And it's back to the idea of like, we are our own worst critics. Like show up and be enthusiastic and someone is going to match that enthusiasm.
Lauren: Absolutely. And I am by no means a sports person, but when you talked about basketball that unlocked something in my brain about how a pickup game of basketball… there is an intention behind that. It’s like, “hey, we're all just going to gather, have fun,” like there's no like… sure, you can keep score, but no one's going home with anything.
There's nothing on the line and at the same time, you can have the NBA where it's a completely different set of goals and thought processes that you're playing with. And I think that says a lot about monetizing a creative thing, relying on it for your income is like the NBA. And then if you just want to play a pick-up game of basketball, that's also amazing.
Rachael: Yeah! Imagine if no basketball court or soccer field or anything existed because people were like, “well, I'm never going to be Michael Jordan, so I'm going to give up.”
Lauren: Or it's like, “Hey, if you don't have aspirations to play in the NBA, you can't play in this court.”
Rachael: Yeah!
Lauren: It's so silly.
Rachael: The aspiration thing, I just posted a reel about it. And I have really been in this sort of ranting mood about these things; because we don't have to have aspirations to be a professional, to enjoy something. I don't have to have aspirations of quitting my engineering job and becoming an artist to enjoy creating.
And I think that has been the biggest sort of mindset shift that has helped me feel so much more fulfilled in my life.
Lauren: Totally. I've been going through that myself because, after being in culinary school for a year and now being recently graduated, I don't think anyone has any malice when they ask… but I get asked all the time, “So what are you going to do with it? Like, what's the next? Are you going to start doing pop ups? Are you going to open a restaurant? Are you going to go work in a restaurant?” And I get super overwhelmed because I don't know. And I went into school not knowing, thinking that— actually, hoping I would know by the time I graduated. I still don't.
But what you were saying really resonated with me. I know I enjoy cooking. I wanted to pursue it in a structured educational environment. It's always been a bucket list thing to go to culinary school. I did it and that is enough for me. Granted, I know I invested a lot of money and time in it, and so there are parts of me that are like, “do something; do something; do something; get your money back. What's the ROI on this investment?” When it is at a baseline okay that I just did it and I'm satisfied. Yeah, we'll see that, if I end up doing something with it professionally. But I am trying to do what you were just talking about of like… I went in without any specific professional aspirations, kind of secretly hoping that they would reveal themselves to me and they haven't yet. And that is okay because I still love cooking.
Rachael: Yeah. And you, you learned something and you took that away.
Lauren: Totally.
Rachael: And that reminded me of another thing… another tidbit from my therapist. When I started working with this therapist is when I was really kind of at the breaking point of feeling this yearning and this agitation of not feeling fulfilled in my life. I wasn't ever able to articulate it in that way at that time.
Lauren: Oh like an irritation?
Rachael: Yeah, that is how I felt. I just felt like… I just like… I am meant to have a bigger life and this and I didn't know how to get it; and how to get it was to stop living my life for other people and reflect on: ‘what do I want to do? What's fun for me?’ Not to reach some arbitrary societal goal or to make a lot of money, it’s truly just like, “what do I enjoy spending my time doing?”
And one of the things that I kept bringing up was the validation thing. Like “I didn't go to art school, so I can't be this. And I spent six years in the engineering school and got my master's degree and that will just be wasted if I do…” And she was like, “No education is wasted.” Like art school, culinary school, engineering school, like you're still learning new skills, you're practicing being new at something.
You are encountering other people, engaging with other people, having to work on teams, having to communicate your challenges, having to work through those challenges. There are so many things that we learn in a formal education system or even in life education, or on the job that are skills that we can apply to any other thing.
I've had a couple people when I've talked about it's never too late to try something new, and I thought I was talking about it from the perspective of like try a new hobby and someone was like, “I want to switch careers,” and sent me such a lovely message when I kind of did a rant about this in an Instagram live. And truly even if you work 20 years at one job in one industry, you have learned so much with how to work with people, how to manage your time, how to, you know… do your specific skills. But there are so many like problem solving people skills that are basically universal across jobs.
And you have a different perspective. If you're shifting gears and going into another industry, your brain is working in a different way. You're going to bring some fresh ideas to something. So it's like, it truly is never too late, whether you want to just start a hobby or change your entire career. I don't know. Now I'm really ranting.
Lauren: Love the rant. I think we should do like a Rachael Rants Segment.
Rachael: Oh well, there it was. Don't worry, there are plenty more where that came from. I'm so passionate about it just because, my life has improved so drastically. Here I go again: “Rachael Rants.”
When I started reflecting and trying to figure out, you know what makes me happy? How can I prioritize play? And I think using play it is how you can access your creativity. Just starting simple.
Lauren: Yeah. Starting with what would feel fun. Especially if you… when you start doing anything you're likely not relying on it for income right away. That's usually not how it goes. And so, what I always tell people about passion projects or hobbies— things you're exploring creatively on the side, this should be a pressure free zone.
This is self-initiated; this is for you. It's not helpful to beat yourself up about finding the perfect idea or giving yourself like… self-assigning an unrealistic timeline where you're stressed about like, “well, I got to complete this project by this day,” or, “I'm going to make design 12 Greeting Cards as my first series.” No, start with three.
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: Yeah. Keep it easy. It's the under-promise overdeliver thing: if you get a spurt of creative chaos, the good kind, maybe you make more, but it doesn't have to be hard. And if anything… you can start small. Even when you were talking about quilting, at first in my head. I was like, “If I ever wanted to pick up quilting, I would start with like, a potholder.”
Rachael: Yeah!
Lauren: Like baby steps.
Rachael: Totally.
Lauren: And then once I did my potholder, maybe I would do something like a larger potholder.
Rachael: Yeah, like a baby quilt.
Lauren: Yeah…
Rachael: …something like that.
Lauren: Yeah, a quilt for a dog.
Rachael: Yeah. I'm pattern testing right now, a quilt. And I picked the smallest size just because I wanted to make sure that I could get it done in the time frame. And it is listed as a baby size and I'm like, “well no, this is for my cat obviously.” So, I feel like kitty sizes is right.
Lauren: Is it for Miss Kitty or Gazelle or The Salamander. Those are Rachael's cats.
Rachael: Yeah I feel like… Yeah, the salamander is my cat and I need— I have to tell you, have to tell everyone the story of why she's called “The Salamander.” It’s because I thought it would be really funny if your name was Mandy and you were like, “Hey, what's up? I'm Mandy.” You're like, introducing yourself to someone, and someone is like, “short for Amanda?”
And you're like, “No, short for Salamander.”
And then the “The” just came out of nowhere. I don't know. But I call her Sal; so, that didn't work. Just didn't fit. Anyway. It would probably be for her because she is really a cuddle gal. She loves to like make little nests in the blankets. So, yeah…
Lauren: Very cute.
Rachael: Yeah. I feel like I want to resort— or revert back I guess to one of the things that you said about the good kind of creative chaos. And then should we do a time check? How long we've been going?
Lauren: We can at least get like a 40-minute episode out of this. Like We haven’t fucked up that much.
Rachael: I don't think so. No, I think we're once we got rolling. Yeah. Thank you.
Lauren: We just start from the very beginning. People tune out after 30 seconds
Rachael: Hey, as long as they listen to the type that gives us those metrics, you know.
Lauren: That would actually be really hilarious. And okay, from a practical standpoint, wouldn’t do well on any kind of streaming or like podcast platform, but it would be honest.
You can cut this out if you want to, but this is a hilarious story I just remembered that you guys are going to love. I was watching something about the history of food media broadcasting. When the Food Network came around in the nineties, early shows like Emeril were all broadcast live. there wasn't this— like we live in a YouTube world now where people are creating content and then editing, our ability to edit.
But things when things were broadcasted live, apparently there was a scandal with the Food Network when it started really early on, because it was being broadcast live and someone who was managing the channel flipped some wrong switches or whatnot and ended up broadcasting porn on the Food Network.
Rachael: Whoa…
Lauren: Which I find so funny and like, who knows why?
Rachael: Oh my gosh. Yeah.
Lauren: Our ability to edit whatever these 56 minutes down. It's going to be great.
Rachael: Yeah, totally fine.
Lauren: Sorry, I couldn’t help myself!
Rachael: Oh my god, incredible.
[Music]
Rachael: I wanted to ask you about the good kind of creative chaos, and then maybe, maybe we can wrap it up there?
Lauren: And even as you repeated good kind of c— even as you repeated “good kind of creative chaos” back to me…
Rachael: Did we make a mistake with how we named this?
Lauren: Yeah.
Rachael: Although we'll get a giggle sesh out of it each time.
Lauren: So chaotic name to pronounce. I started thinking like, “oh no, I don't want people to think there's like a binary of good or bad,” but I think it's the energizing kind, right?
Rachael: Yes… or depleting.
Lauren: I am so excited about this project. I'm getting so into it. I thought this was going to be a four-hour project, but I've cleared the dining room table, and this is like my zone now, for the next week.
Rachael: Yes, Yes.
Lauren: I love that. I love getting lost in it. People call it “Creative Flow” or “the Zone,” but for me, there's a tinge of chaotic energy where it's just like, “this is my life now.”
Rachael: Yeah, and I think this is why we bond so well over this and honestly, why we called this “Chaotic Creatives” because I get into that zone too, and it's like I have so many ideas and we were talking about what makes you a chaotic creative, and it's like the number of lists you have of projects, or…
Lauren: 100 different brain dump notes in your notes app on your phone.
Rachael: The tabs…
Lauren: It's like having too many tabs open, but all good.
Rachael: Yeah…
Lauren: …like, you know it’s all quality shit.
Rachael: Right, like you need to remember that those are there.
Lauren: You have so many art supplies that like, were maybe touched once.
Rachael: Oh, yeah. If the art supplies are collecting dust, you're one of us. Yeah, I feel like when. I get into that zone, it's all I can think about. Like, all of my free time goes to that particular project, and that feels so good.
Lauren: Yeah.
Rachael: And then I think at the same time, it also feels really good to feel comfortable enough to set a project aside and let it live by itself for a while. And it's okay that it's unfinished. I have so many unfinished projects and it's not that I've abandoned them, it's just that I am not inspired by them right now, and that's okay. That doesn't mean that I'm not a quilter because I haven't quilted in six months, or it doesn't mean that I'm not… What are my other hobbies— a ceramic artist because I took a hiatus for a year.
It just means that's not inspiring me right now. And I know that if I find that energized mindset around that thing, I will go back to it. And because I'm not monetizing these things, that ebb and flow I allow to happen. And I think people get really hard on themselves, especially if they're trying to build a creative practice where it's like— you know, I talk about the artist way all the time and how she talks about writing and creative practice as you get up and you go to work and you do the stuff, you commit to doing the thing every day.
I agree that if I can show up when I don't want to, it's good to build that momentum, but I also feel like what works best with me and my sort of brain is that chaos. “Go, go, go, go. I'm so inspired to get this project done,” and then my attention shifts to something else.
Lauren: Yeah, it's not a forever thing. It's like you want to see it through to a certain point. And once you feel your attention waning or whatnot, like you can just shift focus. It is something that you did, you can always pick it back up. We were talking about this earlier, but it's not like working out for six months and then you stop, and your muscle deteriorates. It just kind of pauses.
It lays dormant in the background and it's also still doing something for you. It's like a program running passively in the background, like you are likely utilizing skills from your previous projects and crafts and like disciplines in your current ones that you're not even necessarily aware of. It's like in your creative subconscious.
Rachael: Totally, because it's building that skill set and building how you're thinking about things. I think one of the reasons that I love quilting so much is color theory, pairing colors and shapes together. Obviously, this is this is a bad example. If you're watching the video, it's black and white, but thinking about, pairing things together that also shifts my perspective on how I'm styling my clothes.
And I think so many creative endeavors inform other ones, maybe not directly. But again, back to the curiosity— when you're approaching it with curiosity, you're building all these perspectives in your head, and that informs your expression at that moment.
Lauren: Yeah, absolutely.
[Music]
Rachael: Do we want to wrap up it?
Lauren: Let's fucking do it.
Rachael: Okay. I would love for you to tell the listeners/viewers what you're working on that you’re excited about right now.
Lauren: Ooooh, okay…
Rachael: What is your chaotic project right now?
Lauren: The chaotic tunnel vision that I just emerged from, from the last 72 hours is nonalcoholic beverage making. I recently wrapped a photo shoot project for one of my clients, which is the Florida Department of Citrus. So, I have a ton of oranges that I need to do something with. And I started getting into… Wow, this is like an amalgamation of things.
I accidentally bought two big of a pack of black tea packets from Meier. Okay, because the 50 pack was $2.49 and the 100 pack was to $2.99.So you're going to get 100.
Rachael: Yeah, this gal loves a deal.
Lauren: Oh my gosh, when it came, I was like, “this is too many tea bags.” So, I have a lot of tea, a lot of oranges. So, I started brewing like these like tea elixir nonalcoholic, basically mocktails or like nonalcoholic beverages where the base is tea. And then you've got different herbs and spices and like things mixed in. Even some of them are like lightly fermented.
And this is also because my wonderful employee, Kristle, doesn't drink. So, I had a reason to do it too. Like oftentimes I find myself using as a jumping off point to make something: What can I make for like the people in my life that I love? And that always brings me joy and feels playful when it's in pursuit of, “someone else is going to enjoy this,” whether it's like you making a quilt for somebody or making a mug for somebody. So that is the latest thing I’ve been working on.
Rachael: I love that!
Lauren: I just came up for air.
Rachael: Amazing. I'm happy you're here and happy to be enjoying one of your bevs. But it's really good, as everything you make is.
Lauren: What about you? What is your latest creative—
Rachael: Before I tell you, what you what you said about making things for people that you love— when I was kind of trying to find the umbrella that covered my stationery, my ceramics, maybe some of my sewing projects, the phrase I kept coming back to was “fostering connection” through my art. Sending a letter to someone, or covering up with a blanket that someone made, or like sipping a cup of coffee out of a mug that someone made: I think I really love functional artwork like mugs and blankets and clothes and art that fosters connection; and your food does that.
Lauren: Aw, Thank you. I think that's really cool what you said— we're going to talk for another hour, watch this. What you said about…
Rachael: Maybe it's two episodes.
Lauren: What you said about figuring out the umbrella resonates with me, because I feel like that's something that I’ve thought a lot about. And I think a lot of chaotic creatives, multi-passionates, think about like, “how do I fit this all under one roof?” But in order to even get to that point, you just have to make a lot of stuff.
And in my experience and what I've witnessed in other chaotic creatives is you just need to follow that thread of fun, “this would be fun to make.” You make a bunch of stuff. The through line will appear eventually; it will, and it only will appear by you making a lot of stuff and then taking a step back and zooming out a little bit and maybe even getting feedback from other people. Over time, it will reveal itself. It will never reveal itself by just sitting alone thinking about it. Like what you were saying about strategizing and getting everything in line in order to act, it's actually the opposite.
Rachael: Yeah and I think a lot of times the through line follows your authentic enthusiasm, because the things that I've done that were successful— the whatever success means, like for me and my metrics have been me starting because I'm excited about the thing and then it to produce income instead of me starting because I wanted to get income from this thing. Those never… I can't sustain them because my enthusiasm isn't there.
Lauren: Yeah, absolutely. It’s a prerequisite to be excited about it. I'm the exact same way. And there's so many ways to get into something like some people's brains, like the incentive of “I could make money from this,” they kind of reverse engineer it that way. Like “there's a gap in the market like let me fill it.”
Rachael: Yeah. You know sometimes. I really wish my brain worked that way. Yeah, but that isn't it for me.
Lauren: Like, I can do it in short spurts, but overall, it needs to be like, “am I having fun doing this?” And that tends to lead to the next like opportunity or actual, like, tangible thing. Like, yeah, marker.
Rachael: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so back to the question. I… what am I excited about right now? I mentioned that I'm pattern testing this quilt. So, that's exciting. But I'm, I'm about to launch for pre-sale a creative workshop and it's called “Prioritize Play” because…
Lauren: P.P.
Rachael: P! P! I know, I know.
Lauren: I’m so sorry…
Rachael: I think it's funny. And you know, if that's if that's the abbreviation that we need to have a giggle and have fun with it. Amazing. But yeah, I'm excited to bring people together and use a lot of these kind of tips in a much more succinct and organized way.
Lauren: Structured, like a sequence.
Rachael: Yes. To help to help folks kind of build more creativity into their lives.
Lauren: It sounds like to actually take the first steps towards what we're actually talking about.
Rachael: Yes. And I think a lot of it is based on my experience and conversations with other chaotic creatives. And yeah, I'm really excited about it. So that is it should be launched before this is aired.
Lauren: Whoa, that's exciting.
Rachael: Yeah, I'm excited. It's gonna be so much fun. Thank you so much for listening. For watching.
Lauren: If you made it all this way. Wow.
Rachael: Yes. Welcome, you're part of the club. Where can they find you on the Internet?
Lauren: I can be found pretty much everywhere on the internet at Hom Sweet Hom, which is like the phrase “home sweet home” without the e’s in “home.” I really did myself a disservice there, but it's fine. It stuck. I really didn't overthink my business name, and I think this could be a whole other episode. Again, “if I choose the perfect business name, then my business will be successful.” No, you choose anything and you roll with it until you want to change it.
Rachael: Yeah, absolutely.
Lauren: Yeah.
Rachael: And I'm Rachael Renae. And mine is funny too, because Rachael and Renae are spelled the not traditional way: R-A-C-H-A-E-L…
Lauren: Never anyone’s first guess.
Rachael: Yeah. R-E-N-A-E. Yeah so, that's where you can find me and on my website. And I recently started doing YouTube; so, maybe we'll have to have like a crossover episode that's like podcast plus YouTube.
Lauren: Yeah, we haven't made…
Rachael: …equals chaos.
Lauren: We haven't made the website for this podcast yet, which again, we're starting before we have everything.
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: But eventually people can find everything…
Rachael: There once we…
Lauren: Decide whatever the domain name might be…
Rachael: …which will be in the show notes, hopefully by the time we launch. Hey, doing it imperfectly, and that is our whole thing.
Lauren: Yes. So yeah, thank you for watching, fellow chaotic creatives. We're assuming you are one of us, if you made it all this way; and you likely are listening to or watching this while doing something else, which is great.
Rachael: Multitasking…
Lauren: …very chaotic creative mode.
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: Yeah.
Rachael: Amazing.
Lauren: Keep at it. Good luck with your project.
Rachael: We'll talk to you soon.
[Music]