Rachael and Lauren talk about the concept of taking "imperfect action" when following what fascinates them, and how this could lead to new insights and a higher tolerance for uncertainty. Plus, Rachael shares fun practices to turn off autopilot and find joy, even at the post office.
Rachael and Lauren talk about the concept of taking "imperfect action" when following what fascinates them, and how this could lead to new insights and a higher tolerance for uncertainty. Plus, Rachael shares fun practices to turn off autopilot and find joy, even at the post office.
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The transcript for this episode can be found here!
Lauren: Hello and welcome to Chaotic Creatives, a show about embracing the chaos that comes from living a creative life.
Rachael: We are your hosts, two self-proclaimed chaotic creative gals. My name is Rachel Renae. I am your internet hype gal. I'm here to help you live a more creative and fulfilling life.
Lauren: And I am Lauren Hom, better known as Hom Sweet Hom all over the internet. I'm a designer, letterer, muralist, and a recent culinary school graduate.
Rachael: Yay. Before we start, can I plug my workshop?
Lauren: Plug it.
Rachael: ... right at the beginning.
Lauren: Do it.
Rachael: Okay. As you're listening to this, which I think is Monday, June 24.
Lauren: Correct.
Rachael: Yes. Okay, cool. This is the last week that you can sign up for my Prioritize Play workshop, which is a four-week live workshop, and by live I mean via Google Meet, where we help you unblock creatively and you get to meet other creative pals who will hopefully become lifelong friends and really tap into your creativity and be able to use play as a tool for living a more creative and fulfilling life, which is-
Lauren: That sounds lovely.
Rachael: ... my whole thing. So last week for enrollment. Let me know if you have any questions.
Lauren: Where can people sign up?
Rachael: They can go to Rachel Renae, R-A-C-H-A-E-L R-E-N-A-E.com/prioritize play, or it's linked on my Instagram and I will maybe add it to the Chaotic Creative-
Lauren: Show notes.
Rachael: Instagram, yeah. And the show notes. We'll put it in all the places.
Lauren: Links will be aplenty.
Rachael: Yes. You'll be able to find it. Do you have anything you want to talk about in your plug?
Lauren: No.
Rachael: Okay. Lauren is not available.
Lauren: If it is Monday, June 24, I would've just finished my mural painting workshop here in Detroit, which-
Rachael: Oh, I can't wait to hear that.
Lauren: ... hopefully sold a spot or two. We'll see. It's weird talking about something in the future.
Rachael: In the future, yeah.
Lauren: I just launched the sales page and we'll see how it goes, but I figure while I still have this studio space, I may as well experiment with it. And what better way to use a studio space that I own than to paint the walls, not having to ask permission.
Rachael: Absolutely. Oh, I can't wait to see. And if we are still recording episodes for season one in this space, our background might be different after the mural workshop.
Lauren: That is very true.
Rachael: Which we might be done. It's weird planning and recording in advance. But I also want to mention that we are thinking about having a Chaotic Creatives meetup on June 30th.
Lauren: Sunday, June 30th, which I guess is like six days from now, so hopefully we've been promoting it before this episode comes out.
Rachael: Oh, yeah. When it comes out six days from now, I'm like, what? See, the time. We're time traveling right now.
Lauren: Yes.
Rachael: Yes. We'll promote it and hopefully we see you there. It's going to be probably chaotic and creative and fun.
Lauren: The details will also be in the show notes. I think we were talking about just to meet up at a local coffee shop/bar here in Detroit.
Rachael: Yeah, yeah. Low-key. We haven't figured out all the details, but an opportunity to hang and gab, which is one of our favorite things to do.
Lauren: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Just chaotically planned-
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: But still planned and happening. Still planned.
Rachael: The most important part, which is actually such a perfect segue that we didn't plan into our topic today. Because we want to talk about how taking some of that creative energy... Creative people seem to have a million ideas, but then how do we take action? How do we actually make it happen, especially if we're creatives that work for ourselves or are doing things as hobbies, how do we take action? And I think you have a good example to share with us.
Lauren: Yeah. I just got back from a trip to New York. I was there for my official culinary school graduation.
Rachael: Yay. I'm really happy that your friend posted a picture. I don't know if we want to do shout outs or not, but I loved it. I was like, "It's our gal. Thank you."
Lauren: Yeah, it felt symbolic. And I was originally planning on just going for the graduation, and then my inner chaotic creative was like, but what if you rented a workshop space and hosted a bunch of workshops in one day with minimal notice? And so I did that. One thing I've been saying that I've been wanting to do, but not actually making any moves on, is getting back into teaching. So for those of you who don't know, I started teaching in-person workshops around 2016, 2017, and had a lot of fun with them and then moved into teaching online for the next five or so years, and I kind of fell off of that during lockdown and started feeling disconnected from the online teaching experience. So I've been saying that I want to get back into in-person teaching, but just the way I've described it is, the longer that I wait to do it, the harder it is to get back in.
So I really thought that by, even though it was last minute, renting the space, throwing a sales page up and announcing, "Hey, I'm going to be in New York. Here's the workshop come through." Even if one person signed up for each workshop, it would hold me accountable to doing the thing that I've been saying that I want to do for so long. And I've just been in this phase of kind of floating where I'm like, "Oh, I have all these things I want to do," but I'm not actually doing any of them.
And we were talking before we started recording. When I look back on my career and my life, oftentimes the thing that gets me to do something is the existence of others. Whether it is a friend doing it with me or me telling a friend like, "Hey, I'm going to make you this," someone else expecting something from me is what gets me to do something. Me wanting to do it is not enough sometimes. And so I think the existence of someone else relying on me or expecting something from me has been the thing that pushes me over the edge.
So I hosted these workshops. I did a food lettering workshop, which is something I've dabbled in over the years, and I think after graduating culinary school was something I was eager to teach, felt exciting to teach, and then I hosted a fruit shaped pompom earring workshop all in the same day.
Rachael: Amazing. If you’re listening-
Lauren: My day of play.
Rachael: ... Lauren is wearing her fruit shaped pompoms, one of her many pairs. Strawberries?
Lauren: Yes.
Rachael: Today?
Lauren: Yes. Strawberries.
Rachael: So check it out on the YouTube. Or maybe we'll post the clips on Instagram.
Lauren: Yes. Well, thank you. And yeah, it was really great to finally get back into teaching and it reminded me that I really do love teaching in person. And I also teaching online, it's just a different experience, I think, gathering in person versus congregating in a digital space. And I think I'm just trying to navigate how to incorporate both of those back into my creative business because I've been out of it for so long.
And you mentioned that you also recently scheduled something to make your ideas happen.
Rachael: Yes. And before I go there, I have two things I want to respond to that I don't want to lose my train of thought. I probably will. But the first is something that I've been thinking about a lot, especially as it relates to people in Palestine that are experiencing horrors. And feeling helpless as an American, what do I do?
Lauren: Watching the horrors.
Rachael: Watching it and consuming it. And of course it's easy to just be like, "There's nothing I can do. I feel hopeless. I feel terrible," which I do, but just continuing to remind myself to take imperfect action. If it's calling my reps, emailing them, talking about it with my friends, donating money, those aren't going to solve the problem, but it's imperfect action. It's at least doing something.
And that idea of imperfect action I think is something that I'm trying to do in all aspects of my life. So obviously the activism part of things, but taking action on a creative project, even if it's just a hobby for me, or taking imperfect action if it's a professional thing. Like, you could have waited to go back to New York and plan something that was more elaborate, and you just took imperfect action. You're like, "Okay, I'm going these days. I'm throwing these up on the website. Maybe they'll work, maybe they won't." And I think that that's kind of what we need to do because no action is perfect, and we will learn something each time.
So that was the first thought, and I didn't lose it. The second thought, is I think... Oh no, it's gone, but I'll go on to the third.
Lauren: Great.
Rachael: Yeah, I just recently scheduled something because a couple of years ago now, I made some merch. I designed-
Lauren: I have a pair of your socks.
Rachael: Yay. The socks, I love how they look. I don't love how they fit my feet. I'm really particular about my socks. And I always see them in my sock drawer and I never reach for them, but they're really cute in my opinion. Anyway, so I made some socks, I made some baseball hats, and of course I used to make stickers and things like that for my stationery business. And I have been feeling the itch to make a product that exists in real life lately. And I've been wearing, my hat is purple and it says, "Nope," in my wavy hand lettering, which is one of the styles that I used to do in my stationery business. And a lot of folks have been asking, when I wear it, "Where'd you get that hat? Where's it from? When are the hats coming back?"
And that feels like enough of a push for me to get some more hats launched. I've been thinking about different color ways, thinking about doing hats that say, "Play." And to hold myself accountable, I asked my broadcast channel on Instagram, "If I hosted a free design working session, would you come?" And enough people said yes, which I know that probably 10% of the people that said they would come actually will sign up, and that's okay. I scheduled it. I scheduled a virtual meeting where I'm going to work on the merch and kind of just talk through my design process.
I'm not going to be teaching people how to use Illustrator or Photoshop because I barely know how to use it, but I'll work through what I'm thinking, show some different color ways, give people an option to provide feedback, which is the benefit of attending is if your favorite color is pink and one of the options is pink and you want this, you get to provide feedback. But it's also, and mostly, a way for me to hold myself accountable to other people, like you said. Bringing other people into the mix is holding me accountable. And maybe that other idea or thought that I had will circle back to me.
Lauren: Yeah, I think that's really beautiful because I think a lot of times, especially for those of us who do creative things that can be done in isolation that don't require going to a studio, for example, it can be a lonely thing. You're just doing your midnight crafts. I'm the ultimate midnight crafter, but.
Rachael: I don't remember the last time I was awake at midnight.
Lauren: I forgot you're an early to bed gal.
Rachael: Mine's like an eight p.m. craft, that is the comparable-
Lauren: Great. Late night relative to whatever that means to you. But I think that involving community in making can totally be a thing, whether it's people hosting drink and draws or just meetups or even just making alongside each other, co-working sessions, things like that. Art making can absolutely be a group activity, and you can bounce ideas off of each other. Even these workshops that I taught in New York, even though sure it was me leading the classes, there was a lot of great interactions that happened between students of like, "Oh, I like the way this is happening or this is happening," or, "Oh, let me try this technique." Happy accidents that happen, just dialogue within a group that's really nice. And that's something that I think I forget a lot of times when it's just me alone in my studio or apartment.
Rachael: Yeah, just getting a little bit of a perspective shift. And that is... I was going to host the Prioritize Play workshop completely on your own time. I was going to re-record it and then release it as a digital item just, without me being there. But it was so lovely having the community aspect of it when I did it the first time, and those gals are friends now that communicate and support each other. And that aspect of building community I think is one of the major takeaways from that workshop that I ended up keeping it as a virtual live session, because I want that community building to happen.
And I think what I was going to say earlier is that I used to think that the goal of having a creative business was make something that I'm excited about, put it out in the world and then not think about it again, not have to pay attention to it. And that might be true for some things, like digital items that you create and are a benefit to people.
Lauren: It organically works that way for some products.
Rachael: Right. And then I thought that I would want to take as much of my labor out of it as possible, but I actually really get a lot of benefit of being there and being in community with the other folks. Even though like you said, you were leading the workshop, but it's still the participants are experiencing dialogue, you are probably getting a perspective shift. I feel like I always am when someone takes something that I say and interprets it in their own way, and that's really lovely.
Lauren: Yeah, absolutely. I think that has been the central tension of running my creative business for the last decade plus. I was talking with Kristle about this earlier, is because I spent the last five years mostly operating in an online space. So much of the online business advice, and the benefit of working online is the scale. You can create something, set it, forget it, passive income, blah blah, blah, blah, blah. Nothing is truly passive.
And also creative spirits, particularly chaotic creative spirits, don't want to set it and forget it. You want a hand in it. It's your baby. And I think that I was starting to feel like the scalability of set it forget it online teaching was becoming a little less personal, and I kind of lost touch with my why, like why I was teaching. And so getting back to my roots of teaching in person was what I was craving. And the tension of balancing what you want to do and what would feel good to do and what you're craving with what is going to make the most money, is just something that a lot of creatives have to contend with. It's like what we've talked about before of, which skills do you monetize? Some of our skills are more profitable than others, and that's just something to take into consideration. And that's okay.
Rachael: And I think thinking about the non-monetary side of things is what you and I tend to talk about a lot. And I think as you get older, it's not so much about, I have to make all this money, at least not for people like us. And it's okay if that's your goal and that you're trying to make tiny tweaks to be really efficient and make the most money, but I think chaotic creatives get a lot of energy from the things that we're doing, so that is a benefit that should also be taken into consideration.
Because if I'm making an online course and I have, my Dress for Yourself course is online, and I'm still really proud of it and I'm really excited and I like talking about it and it serves a purpose because it answers a lot of the same questions I get asked about personal style, so that's great. It's me not having to talk about the same things over and over, which is not energizing to me compared to... Whoa, we got new mics. Exciting. I so badly, just want to bite it and rest my face on it, and poor Kristle's going to have deal with me.
Lauren: It's like a beauty blender. That's why. It just occurred to me.
Rachael: Okay, I just want to give it a little kiss.
Lauren: This is an ASMR channel now?
Rachael: All of a sudden. I'll make sure to put it up to my throat when I gulp my water. But I think-
Lauren: Blur out that gulp, Kristle. [inaudible 00:17:46] paywall content.
Rachael: ... very slowly turns into, "We got dinner and we're going to have 30 minutes of eating our food before we start the podcast."
Anyway, what I was saying is that there are obviously, we know this, that there are other things that we can get as a benefit from doing something than money. And I think both are important. If we are running creative businesses, we need to be able to pay our bills and our time is valuable and our expertise is valuable and we should be charging appropriately for it. But also recognizing that, yeah, it might take four hours or however long your day was that you held three workshops, way longer than four hours, the entire day. But you may have left... This is how I'm speaking about your workshop from my experience, even though I wasn't there, but I feel so energized sometimes after teaching in person, or even virtually but live. And that is something to take into consideration. Like, "Okay, yes, I maybe could reach these scalable sales goals if I didn't do this live, but I'm getting so much out of it for my own fulfillment." Does that make sense?
Lauren: Absolutely. It's all an experiment. I was talking with Kristle about this earlier. As someone who's found a lot of success historically with online courses, and I think there are lots of topics that are well-suited for online education. I've just found myself craving in-person teaching for whatever reason, maybe because it's been a while since I've taught, maybe because after the lockdown in 2020, it was just a lot of online video consumption. And I was journaling the other day and I was thinking about the phrase that you see a lot of times in shop windows of people over profits, and usually that's in relation to labor rights and ethics. But I was thinking about it in terms of... Excuse my grammar, because I'm just going to repeat what Kristle said, but, "I am people too." Wow. So horrendous.
Rachael: I love it.
Lauren: But no creative person I know got into the arts or started their creative business because they're like, "I'm going to maximize the fuck out of these profits." No one got got into it because of that.
Rachael: "I can't wait to take advantage of my employees so that I can make the most money." Like no, we would've went into different industries-
Lauren: Exactly.
Rachael: ... if we wanted that, which we don't.
Lauren: And so you're people too. And what that means is, you really do have to prioritize what you are craving and what you know need in order to sustain your creative business if you're going to be in it for the long haul. And I just intuitively knew that I wanted to teach in person. Even though I have made a lot of money from teaching online, I've just been feeling disconnected from it for the last couple years, and that's slowed down my sales. So I know if I ever want to get back into it... The reason I got into online teaching was because I was teaching in person. And so I'm just re-exploring things.
And I think you and I have talked about this too, where... For anyone who is a couple years to a decade into their career, maybe this lands. But when I was just starting out, there was no memory or imprint of what success looked like or any results that I had, so I could just kind of navigate and move through things of like, "I'm going to try stuff, see what happens." There was no previous stats to compare myself to. As I've progressed in my career, I find myself more and more paralyzed by the fact that I've set a bar for myself with certain things, like certain client milestones, certain income milestones, and I'm just like, "If I don't hit those same numbers, then I am garbage," which is not true.
But I needed to bait myself into teaching again by just doing it. And like what you were saying before, I could have decided to plan for longer and waited until next time when I had all my ducks in a row, but the ducks are never in a row. And I just knew that this is what I needed right now. And again, instead of trying to be perfectionistic about it and maximize how much money I can make from the workshops, I just threw up the sales page a week before and said, whoever shows up shows up. And it was so much fun to teach people.
And I learned a lot of stuff. The food lettering workshop sold better than I thought it was going to, and the pompom earring workshop sold so much worse than I thought it was going to. And we chatted about it. It's like, "Oh, fascinating." I thought that at the price point, I think the pompom workshop was 75, the food lettering workshop was 200. I was like, "Oh, easy. The pompom workshop is so much cheaper than the food lettering workshop, it must sell at least twice as much." No. Yeah. And that's just information to have, because I've never taught a craft workshop before.
And similar to what you were saying about people are like, "Oh, where'd you get the notepad from?" And that's a good starting place to think maybe this is something I should make. People ask about my earrings all the time on Instagram, and I've historically only ever made them for myself, but I was like, "I could teach that. That'd be fun." And very few people signed up. And that's okay. I filled the rest of the class with friends and it was still really fun, but it was a good learning experience that maybe the more specialized class was what people want to learn from me. Because when you are monetizing any creative skills, you're just in dialogue with a customer base now, and what they actually will give you money for matters.
Rachael: And I think one thing that, when we were texting about it, you made a really good point. My audience, I think mostly is trying to prioritize play and build creativity into their already busy lives that... They may not be pursuing creativity as a career. I'm trying to encourage people to do that. We have time to build creativity into our lives even if you don't want to quit your job, even if you think you have too many responsibilities, because it's beneficial to our well-being, and that's my message.
And so me teaching a pom-pom making workshop would be about, "Hey, look, we're doing a fun thing. We're connecting with people. We are prioritizing play, and the final product doesn't really matter." And I talk about that a lot in the workshop. It's actually more about the process for me. And your audience generally is trying to learn how to create or expand their creative businesses. So again, good information, right? People [inaudible 00:24:55]. And food lettering's still fun. Right.
Lauren: It's so niche.
Rachael: What did you do in the workshop? I can't believe I didn't ask this very important question.
Lauren: So I demonstrated three different food mediums. So we had our powders, our sprinkles, and our sauces. [inaudible 00:25:13] I know you're a sauce gal.
Rachael: Love it.
Lauren: We have to tell the sauce license plate story at the end of this. Put a pin in that.
So basically different techniques on how to work with food as an artistic medium for photo styling. I guess you could apply these techniques to actual food decorating, but it was mostly for other designers or art directors who wanted to use food as a medium for photo styling, because I've been able to incorporate food into my work, like illustration work for things like gift cards for Target, just personal pieces too where it's a textural piece that we end up photographing. So we used stencils and used flour, matcha, sugar. We used squeeze bottles with different sauces and honey and stuff. And then we used things like salt and sugar and popcorn kernels, just different food things. I titled the workshop Pantry as Palette.
Rachael: You're so good at that stuff. Anytime, like I knew that you were just throwing this together and I'm like, "This bitch with this perfect title, this perfect workshop that she just threw together."
Lauren: I will say having a...
Rachael: That was a warm "this bitch." This was like a loving-
Lauren: Oh, I could feel the warmth.
Rachael: Okay, good.
Lauren: Having such a quick turnaround for me forces me to say, "Good enough is good enough." There's no time to overthink. [inaudible 00:26:40] And I trust myself. I know I'm good at naming stuff. That's probably fine, and that's probably the name I'm going to roll with if I teach it again. It's easy enough.
And so basically, I had these colored backdrops that people worked on, and think of just basic, like giant colorful cutting boards, and people would just arrange ingredients into different letters. And we made one final piece. I can link to some photos or show you some photos afterwards, but it was so much fun.
There was some lettering artists. There was an animator, there was someone who worked in publishing, art directors. It was a really nice mix of people. And the thing that really surprised me was, more people were willing to pay a higher price point for that workshop. Also at a less convenient time. It was from 11 a.m to 3:00 p.m, so the middle of the day. So people either took off of work or maybe they're freelancers already.
It really threw me for a loop that the pom pom workshop didn't sell as well, because it was like seven to nine, after work. Maybe I was off base, and that's completely fine. There could be someone out there who could sell a pom pom earring workshop better than I could, and that's okay. You got to test it out. And I figured worst-case scenario, I rented the space for the whole day. I knew that what I wanted to get out of the day was to just get back into teaching. I just have felt for the last nine months or so, I've been watching people swinging jump ropes and waiting for my chance to jump in and just not doing it. So I needed the push of selling some tickets, even just one ticket, to do it.
Rachael: Yeah, I think that... Again, harping on this imperfect action thing, but that is the thing that has... It's been the only constant in my creative career I feel like, is just doing it. Which is the worst advice to receive when someone is just like, "You just have to start," and you're like, "I know." But it's the only thing that will get me moving. Like, okay, yeah, I'm going to create this design working session for this March because it's the only thing that will kind of hold me accountable. And maybe this is a chaotic, creative ADHD thing where we have to have something to pull us into action.
But I think about, I signed up for a trade show boot camp workshop to be able to understand how to sell my stationery at a trade show, and I would've never signed up for a trade show had I not taken that boot camp. Or, there are so many things that I want to do better, but I don't have the capacity, like better product photos for the workshops, more testimonials to convince people, more time on the sales page.
And it's like, no, you just got to throw it up there and your people will understand. Your perfect people will find you, ultimately, and just keep trying stuff to see what works. Because trying the thing, whether it's a creative business or whether it's a hobby, even if it fails, is going to give you so much information. You're not going to waste your mind space thinking about that thing if it failed. And I think that that's just what we, that's the advice I have, I guess, for whatever sort of realm you're in, whether it's the creative business or creative hobbies, is just try the thing.
Lauren: Oh, yeah.
Rachael: Put the sales page up. Make a product, and if it doesn't sell, that's fine. Make a product for you.
Lauren: Yeah. My advice has always been when it comes to what should I make, as long as you make something that you or your friends would like, at the very least you have something that you are satisfied with and you can add to your portfolio or your experience. I think that when I look back at my career, it's been a lot of, it's all trial and error. Granted, I did go to design school, so a lot of school was trial and error of getting a brief and trying different design things, but oftentimes it's not until you publish it and put it out there and get feedback from other people who are potential customers that you really think like, "Oh, okay, this is clicking with people. This is resonating with people."
Maybe I do more of this if it also felt fun for me. That's the whole reason I got into lettering as my entry point into the design world. I was working in advertising at the time, but I put my lettering out there and it resonated with people. And I know there is advice out there that's like, you shouldn't pay attention to what anyone else thinks. All that matters is what you think. But if you are going to turn it into a self-started business, what other people think does matter, if you are going to sell to people. And customers are people, so I think-
Rachael: I am people too.
Lauren: I am people. God, the grammar is just heinous.
Rachael: Oh, I love it.
Lauren: It's great. Everything's great. And with teaching, you take your best guess, right, based on what people have asked for or what you would feel excited to teach. And if something sticks, then you do more of that, and then when it stops working, you try something else. And when it stops being fun, you try something else. And that's all I've known to do. And I think, a decade into my career now, I think it's easy to get used to the way things are and to get a little bit complacent, which is why I wanted to shake things up and go to culinary school and try something new. But in this period of newness, it is scary too because when you shake things up, there's a lot more uncertainty. But I'm here to weather the storm.
Rachael: Yeah. I know that you feel what I'm about to say, but I just want to clarify that when you are talking about we do have to care what other people think, that's not to say that you should shift the thing that you want to create for other people. If you're making something and someone was like, "Oh, I wish you would make this in pink," or, "Oh, I really wish you would offer a style course." If that's not your thing, that's not what Lauren needs, I don't think.
Don't... It's important to care what people think as far as what people will pay for. But that's once you find your perfect people, because you need to create what you want to create for yourself. And obviously there are tweaks and sacrifices and compromises that you have to make to make something sellable sometimes, but don't just fall victim to like, "Oh, the market right now is hot for this particular thing. I could do that. Maybe I should." Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should, if it's not lighting you up and if it's not the thing that you want to be doing. Does that make sense?
Lauren: Absolutely. Oh, totally. And I think especially as creative people, we are hypersensitive to that. If you don't want to be doing it, you won't do it well and with enthusiasm and with passion, therefore it will flop. So I think you have to be, at a base level, you have to be excited about it. And exactly what you said, the nuance is you don't need to be open to all feedback, but you do need to pay attention to like, "Okay, at a base level, I'm making what I want to make." How are people responding to it, so you can make tweaks should you want to make them, to make a living if that's what you want to do.
Rachael: Yes, yes. I mean, when you were talking about that, it reminded me of when I was sort of at the tail end of the stationery business, which I know I talk about in every episode.
Lauren: I think it's so good to hear about though.
Rachael: Yeah, because I really don't see it as a failure, even though I closed the business. And right now I'm itching to make a product again, but I don't want to make a product that's available for wholesale and do that whole thing. I just want to make something that's fun for me in the moment, and it's a limited run. You get the hats when I make them.
Lauren: Yeah, it's not forever. And you have all the knowledge and skills that you got from the previous run of-
Rachael: Totally.
Lauren: ... your stationery business to know how to produce that. And you could do it in your sleep, I bet.
Rachael: Exactly, yeah. I know which suppliers I have to go to. I know how to use Photoshop, ish, to do what I needed to do. And I remember I had paid a lot of money, between five and $10,000, I can't remember what it was, for this creative coaching to take my lettering and design work that I was putting into the stationery business and try to learn how to do brand design, digital design, because I thought, "This is a way that I can scale this lettering that I'm already doing." So I signed up for this masterclass group coach program for three months, I think.
And we also had one-on-one meetings with the coach, and when I was talking about my creative business, it was also the time that my Instagram sort of took off from the style stuff. And when I was talking about that and explaining how excited I was for me to show other women that they can feel confident and style can be used as a tool for creative self-expression, he was like, "You really don't light up like this when you talk about your stationery business."
And I was doing it for the wrong reasons. I was doing it because I was like, "Well, I can do lettering and some design and it would be cool if I learned the skills to be able to get clients to do digital work so I could have bigger contracts and do less stuff," not because it was lighting me up. I was just like, "I want this to be a creative career." And when he said that, I was like, "Whoa."
Lauren: That's a really good observation. And that was something that we talked about in my food lettering workshop of, there's something about the presence of other people, whether it's in a one-on-one coaching session or in a classroom environment with a small group of people, where oftentimes you need a third party perspective to point out something about your work or your enthusiasm that you might be blind to by you're too close to the work. You're too in it. There was a participant in my workshop who was making these beautiful lettering [inaudible 00:37:25] that looked a lot like monograms, and we told her, "Not that you have to do anything with it, but this seems like a real strong suit of yours," and, "Do it that what you will."
The same thing happened to me in college. In one of my design classes, someone mentioned, "Hey, food seems to be a big theme in all these projects you're working on," and I didn't really think much of it at the time. But historically when I look back over the last 10 years, food has been a recurring theme. So it really isn't that big of a shock that I went to culinary school eventually. But we can't really see that when we are the ones with our head down doing the work. So it's amazing that he pointed that out.
Rachael: Oh yeah, I'm so grateful. And even though I didn't, I mean I finished out the coaching program, there's a lot I learned about creating my own brand and information about teaching a workshop, for example, because I was in one as a participant. It was so valuable, but I really appreciate that he pointed that out because I probably would've continued on and sort of put my head down and tried to power through.
Lauren: Ooh, putting your head down and powering through. It's a way that we gaslight ourselves as creatives. The way I've been describing it, I don't know if I've mentioned this or described it in another episode, but we just finished AAPI Heritage month, and I said this on stage at a conference I spoke at, so I feel confident saying it on a podcast now. But I've been describing it as Asian parenting your creativity where it's like the should, the practicality, the put your head down, do the hard work and it'll pay off.
That is so demoralizing, I think for chaotic creatives who just want to prioritize play and follow the fun, and we snuff out our creative spark and our light by giving into the practical, pragmatic, you know, Chinese dad, love you dad, who says, "But what about the money? But what about the tried and true? But what about the path you've been on? What about the sunk cost?" It's the sunk cost fallacy basically where you've invested X amount of years down this path, you may as well keep going. Even though if you're not happy on that path, then it's still going to be a waste of time. So it's actually better in the long run to make the pivot or make the adjustment so you're happier.
Rachael: And I think the fear of failing at the next thing often keeps us in the thing that we're doing. Maybe not... Maybe we're not miserable, but it's not lighting us up.
Lauren: The hardest is when you're not miserable. When you hate your job, it's so easy to throw your hands up in the air and go, "Literally, anything else would be better than this." When I was unhappy at my very first advertising job, it was an easy decision for me to say, "I'm going to try freelancing, and fuck it. I will walk dogs part time to clear my mind and have a little bit of income while I figure freelancing out." That felt better than working my junior art director job. But when you're kind of fine, everything's okay. You're just kind of putzing along. That's when I think it can get a little bit, that's when it's on you I think to make a change.
Rachael: Because it's easier in that, it is kind of like a rut. It's harder to step out of it because you're not miserable. You're kind of like you said, putzing along on the path. And that fear, and I think the fear from a lot of parents, Asian or otherwise is that, "Oh, okay, you've invested this time." And I feel like I've even kind of heard it from former friends where it's like, "Oh my gosh, you're going to do that. Isn't that going to be expensive? Aren't you going to spend a lot of time doing that?" It's like, "Yes, but if I don't try, how do I know that I won't be happier?"
Lauren: Yeah. It's like that phrase, better oh, well, than what if. Have you heard that before?
Rachael: I like that. No, I haven't.
Lauren: Where it's like, just give it a try. Find out .if it doesn't work out, oh well. But it's better than in your 60s waking up one day going, "But what if I had tried?" That's terrifying.
Rachael: Yeah, absolutely. I know I always mention this book, but there's so many little tidbits in it, in that 100 Ways to Change Your Life book. One of the doctors that she's interviewing, or researchers, researches regrets, like life regrets. And they kind of fall into three categories, and I may not remember them off the top of my head. One of them is like... Oh, I'm not going to try.
One of the categories is the regret of what if. And people always, even if they made the decision and it was the wrong one, regret the what ifs more than they.... And they did this, an academic study where they quantified these sort of regrets. And it was just really interesting because truly it's the oh, well, versus what if, because you try something and you fail, it's still information. And we talk about this all the time on the podcast and in our lives. It's still information, and that can include something massive like trying a different career, or it can be something that has very low impact in your day to day, like trying a new hobby and being bad at it. So yeah, just try the thing again.
Lauren: I was talking with some girlfriends the other day about just even small ways to increase your tolerance for uncertainty. Something even as simple as, it's so easy if you go to your neighborhood restaurants. You always order the same things because your tried and true. And I understand too, if you're going to pay 20 bucks for an entree, you want to make sure you like it so it makes sense to order the thing you know you like. But once in a while it's pretty low stakes to mix it up, try the special, try something new. Whatever description you're drawn to, it's not going to be awful. You'll survive. Or just changing something up where it's inconsequential, I think can be a good way to start to build a little bit more tolerance for uncertainty.
Because the older I've gotten, the more set in my ways that I've gotten. And I think that for the average person, my tolerance for uncertainty is higher. Most freelancers and creative people, especially the combination of the two, have a little bit of a higher tolerance. But even as someone like that, my tolerance has gone way down the older I've gotten, especially after being partnered for seven years in a long-term relationship. You just get used to a certain routine, and I think breaking that routine, going to culinary school and mixing things up was what I knew that I needed. And it shook a bunch of other things up in my life too, which was good, ultimately good. I know I'm going to look back on it in five or 10 years and not regret it.
Rachael: Of course. Because you already don't regret it.
I think that that reminded me, sort of the expanding your tolerance for uncertainty, reminded me of... One of the things that I talk about in the Prioritize Play workshop is paying attention because I think, again, we get into our routines and our brains go on autopilot. We don't notice the things that are happening in our everyday routine, our walk to the car, or our walk to work because we're on autopilot, we're not paying attention. But if we can actively train our brain to notice new things, whether it's counting the birds that you see on your walk or noticing how many colors are in the post office... Did I talk about this already? Have I told you this story?
Lauren: Tell me again.
Rachael: My local post office doesn't have the color purple in it. Because I did this the other day. I was like, I challenged the last cohort of the play workshop to next time they were standing in line at the grocery store or the post office. Our instinct is to go on our phones. Mine, too. I open up Instagram without even thinking about it. And I love Instagram and I have very high limits on what I set for myself to screen time.
Lauren: What is your screen time limit?
Rachael: Oh, my Instagram limit is three hours.
Lauren: At one time?
Rachael: No, for a day. And I hit that shit and I say ignore for today. So freaking- [inaudible 00:46:13].
Lauren: Hell, yeah.
Rachael: And that's fine. I'm not shaming myself about that.
Lauren: It's helpful for people to know that though. As a... Look, you are very active on Instagram and it's helpful for people to know that's how much time you spend on it on average.
Rachael: Totally.
Lauren: It doesn't mean that that's how much you spend all the time or whatnot.
Rachael: I'm often not... I mean, I am scrolling, I'm browsing stuff. I'm cackling at the memes just like everybody else.
Lauren: But you share a lot too.
Rachael: Yes, I am interacting with my community on there. That's the platform that I use.
Lauren: You're engaged.
Rachael: I don't feel bad about that.
Lauren: Great. You shouldn't.
Rachael: But I don't want to be doing it mindlessly.
Lauren: Yes.
Rachael: It's one thing to be on my couch and doing it. But if I'm out in public, I don't want to just be on my phone all the time. And so there are things that I try to do that are silly little things that force me to be present in the moment and pay attention. So at the post office, I was like, "Okay, I'm going to go through every color in the rainbow. Do they have it here?" And then I was like, "Okay, red found it, obviously red and blue, post office. We got them." And then I went through and I'm like, "Wow, there's no purple in here. How interesting to work in an office that doesn't have any purple anywhere in it." That doesn't matter. That wasn't any sort of magical information that I discovered. But I also looked at the other people in line, made eye contact, smiled with them, was paying attention to take my next step forward, listen to the conversations around me. Eavesdropped, one of my favorite things to do.
So doing things like that. Or I also use the example of, if I'm at a flea market, or I could even do it right now in your studio, there's that tray... For anyone watching or listening, you can't see it anyway, Lauren has a cart with a ton of art supplies on it. And if I were at a flea market with you, I'd be like, "Okay, which one of those art supplies is you? Which one's me? Which one's Kristle and why?" And it's like silly little stuff like that. And I'm like, "Well, obviously I'm the fork because I love to eat." But you might say, "Obviously you're the purple Posca pen because you're like oily." Not you, you saying that about me because I'm one of your greasiest gross girlfriends.
O it's interesting because it forces you to self-identify. It forces your friend to take the characteristics that they know about you and assign... It's like actually something so silly can bring up a lovely conversation, or it can just be silly. And the example that I used in the workshop is that when I'm at the zoo and you use... They have in the bird room, they have a sign with all the birds on it. And anytime I go to the zoo with somebody, I'm like, "Okay, which bird am I? And which one are you and why?"
And my instinct is to be like, "Oh, I'm the brightest yellow bird," because that's my favorite color. But someone, I might say for someone else or someone else might say for me, "Well, you're the crow because you like shiny things." And so thinking about why someone is assigning that, all of that is stuff that you could do literally anywhere, but you're paying attention. You're in the moment. If you're with another person, you're connecting with them. And I think that that also maybe not expands our capacity for uncertainty, but for joy in the everyday moments. Getting us out of our routine. Getting us out of autopilot.
Lauren: Yes, a hundred percent.
Rachael: Feel free to steal any of those. And also now you have to do it. Which one am I and which one is Kristle and which one are you?
Lauren: I really did think you were calling me the oily...
Rachael: No, I was saying maybe you pick the Posca marker for me because I'm the oily one. I would never call you oily.
Lauren: I was like, wow, Rachel and I must be really good friends now that she can tell me I'm oily.
Rachael: And I called you a bitch earlier. Like, all of a sudden the podcast is over. We're not friends anymore.
Lauren: The warm bitch.
Rachael: Yeah, no, it was an endearing bitch. And now I feel bad about it.
Lauren: No, you shouldn't feel bad about it. Also, all those Posca markers are so old.
Rachael: And they're upright, so they're for sure dry.
Lauren: Oh yeah. It's, actually, there's a funny backstory to that jar of Posca markers. I bought them because when Kristle first started working here at Hom Sweet Hom Incorporated, we...
Rachael: Are you an Inc.?
Lauren: I am an Inc, actually. Cute little S corp. We bought them because we were going to try to implement this, weekly, which was very ambitious. I think it could be monthly... Thing called Try Day Friday.
Rachael: Fun.
Lauren: Where on Fridays we tried a new thing, like a creative thing.
Rachael: Love that.
Lauren: And drawing with Posca markers was one of them. So we got a set of Posca markers. They tear up paper. Truly. Yes.
Rachael: They're amazing.
Lauren: Yeah, they're good for some stuff that I think we used them a couple times after that, and no. Which is fine. It's all good. The important thing is to try.
Rachael: To try. Yeah. Wow. Since we're talking about silly stories, I do want to tell the sauce story.
Lauren: Yes.
Rachael: So, we're circling back to many minutes ago.
Lauren: To food lettering workshop. Me talking about using sauces as a medium.
Rachael: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And I'm a self-proclaimed sauce gal. I love sauces. I want liquid. I want a goopy food, always. Sandwich, I want that leaking out of the bread. I want the sauces.
And I love also a vanity plate on my car and motorcycle. And my motorcycle license plate used to say we oui, O-U-I like French yes, because I like, I'm learning French, and I thought it would be cute. But then my friend pointed out that O-U-I is Operating Under the Influence. And I was like, "I'm not trying to get pulled over because I have a stupid O-U-I license plate."
And so I tried to switch it to sauce. Sauce was unavailable. So I did S four U-C-E, so basically sauce. And I submitted it, and you have to give a reason why you chose that vanity plate. And I said, "I am a self-proclaimed sauce gal." And that's all I said. And it got denied. And so I got a letter in the mail that said, "You can't. We say no to this." And then it said, "You can appeal," but then you also had to pick backups. And I did appeal, and I was like, "I like sauces." And then I put colon: ranch, nacho cheese, hot sauce. I just listed a bunch of sauces.
Lauren: Not to be confused with getting sauced.
Rachael: And I think that that's why they denied it, because it was associated with alcohol use. But then I was like, why did they let me have OUI then?
Lauren: Also, I didn't know that OUI was operating under the influence. And I feel like that's a good litmus test for when someone reads that, if they are cultured or a dirtbag.
Rachael: Yeah, because yeah, I guess I would always think that it says oui. Yeah. I grew up in the middle of the woods where everyone had DUIs before they graduated high school. People took bets on it, and I never did. A rite of passage, I guess.
Anyway, so I appealed with my list of sauces and it got denied again. And so I picked it back up. I'm not going to say what it is, because then you could easily look me up. I'm sure you still can. Doesn't matter. It's not as fun as oui. Oh. So then I tried to get oui, O-U-I again. I was like, "This was my old one. I'll just take this one back." They wouldn't let me have that one back.
So fast forward a couple of weeks, I was going, I don't know, to get my nose pierced or something. I was at the, I almost said piercing salon. What is it called? Just the piercing shop, I guess. The salon. I like the salon.
And there was a vanity plate that I saw, and I took a picture because for anyone who's not in Michigan listening, it's really cheap to get a vanity plate. It's like $18 a year in addition to your registration. So lots of people have them, and my friend and I send them to each other when we see a good one.
And I took a picture and then I walked in and sat down and the people sitting waiting in the lobby with me, they were giggling and looking at me. And I was like, "Did you guys see me to take a picture of that?" And they were like, "Yeah, that's our car." And I was like, "Oh, let me tell you about this frustrating thing that happened." And I don't usually talk to strangers because I'm like, I don't know, I don't want to get into a whole thing. And that's rude maybe, but I want to read my book in my downtime. Or scroll Instagram, hit my three hour limit.
This story is taking forever. I'm almost done.
Lauren: You got it. You got it.
Rachael: I was telling them about my sauce license plate struggle. And the guy told me that they recently implemented a committee that has to approve your plate, whereas before it was just like if it's available and you pay, you got it. But now there's people that review it, and that's probably why sauce and then oui both got denied, because it is associated with alcohol and they say no association with drugs, alcohol, sex, probably those three. So I did not get sauced or sauce.
Lauren: I'm so sorry. As someone who doesn't drive, I don't know.
Rachael: Yeah. Yeah. Not relevant to you, but thank you for listening. How are we on timing?
Lauren: I think we're cool. We should probably wrap it up.
Rachael: Yeah, absolutely. Lauren, what are you excited about in this upcoming week? It doesn't even have to be a creative project. I think I created that boundary previously, but I just mean anything today.
Lauren: That is okay. Well, I just got back to the studio from New York, so I'm excited to settle back in. I'm excited to get this mural workshop launched, and tonight Kristle's taking me to a concert.
Rachael: Cute. Which one?
Lauren: Going to the Masonic Temple to see Khruangbin. And since this isn't coming out until three weeks after, no one will know we're there.
Rachael: Christina's going to be there.
Lauren: Dressed as a corn? Just kidding.
Rachael: I bet if she could-
Lauren: That’s a Halloween deep cut.
Rachael: Yeah. My friend Christina dressed as a corn and it was really good. All her costumes are.
Lauren: This was, another fun story. The same Halloween that Rachael invited me and my ex to a Halloween party. And we showed up the day before.
Rachael: But she still showed up the next day too, which was good.
Lauren: That was great. Because I think your ring camera, you were like, I was like- [inaudible 00:57:34]
Rachael: I was at a different Halloween party.
Lauren: I was like, wow, "It's pretty quiet in there. I wonder what's going on?"
Rachael: Lame party. She's probably doing forced fun in the basement, which is what I usually do.
Lauren: I like your basement forced fun. I like an activity like to give people structure to the hangouts.
Lauren: And that's what the Art of Gathering book that I referenced in the last episode is all about. You have to have some kind... That's why a board game night is one of the most tried and true good times, because there's a purpose that you're gathering around.
Rachael: And friendly competition
Lauren: People come with a specific energy for that. And I think when you let your guests know what you're showing up for, which is why something like the container of a workshop, a class, some kind of curated event, it's so helpful for your guests. It's like a loving thing you can do for your guests so they know how to show up.
Rachael: Yeah, absolutely. I feel like maybe not in the board game night, but when I hosted my birthday party last year, I had different activities to do and I made them come in a color and I asked specific people to bring things and I made them write me compliments. And that sounds really silly, but asking people to love you in the way that you want to be loved is one of the nicest things that you can do for your friends, because we do want to love on our friends, and we all give and receive love in a different way. So if I say, "I want you to compliment me, so when I'm having low day, I can read your compliments." What an easy thing to do, hopefully.
Lauren: Yeah. Giving people information is giving them, it's empowering them to love on you.
Rachael: Yeah, and I love that.
Lauren: Great.
Rachael: Another thing I make you do in the workshop is ask for feedback, because asking people why they love you is really endearing and heartwarming and gives you a boost.
Lauren: Yeah, yeah. It really does.
Rachael: Yeah. So on that note, Lauren, why do you love me?
Lauren: Because-
Rachael: I'm an oily Posca marker.
Lauren: Because you're an oily purple Posca marker. Because you keep my sandwiches moist?
Rachael: That's the best answer I've ever received. Wow. Thank you so much.
Lauren: I really enjoy the amount of domestic tasks we've done together in the last couple months.
Rachael: Yeah, me too.
Lauren: I love you because of your lust for life, your enthusiasm. You're one of the most considerate people that I know.
Rachael: Oh my God.
Lauren: You brought me a tape measure.
Rachael: I did.
Lauren: Oh my gosh.
Rachael: I gifted Lauren a tape measure.
Lauren: You're also like a Giftie gal. I'm a Giftie gal.
Rachael: Oh yeah. Love, love, love a gift. Yeah. Wow. Thank you. Those are so many answers. I love that. Now I'm going to do it back and that's how we're going to end.
Lauren: Great. I have to ask you what projects you're excited about too, and you can tell me why you love me.
Rachael: Okay, perfect. My dad is visiting me this week, and so we're doing a lot of house projects, which I love.
Lauren: Which is why you have the tape measure.
Rachael: Yes. I also bought myself a tape measure, even though I know I have one, but I want one for both floors, so I don't always have to go... I'm a things gal and I'm like, I am frequently measuring things in the basement and in my bedroom, which is on the second floor, and I don't want to have to go down and up two flights of stairs every time I need a tape measure.
Lauren: Never on the ground floor?
Rachael: There is one already on the ground floor. Yeah. I have a lot of tape measures.
Lauren: It's okay. I mean, in this building, there's a ladder on every floor. I think for that same reason, for maintenance to not have to carry a ladder to a new floor.
Rachael: Oh, yeah, because they would've to carry it up the stairs, because it wouldn't fit in the elevator. Okay.
Lauren: Yeah. We got really tall ceilings in here. You can't see it if you're watching the video or listening, but there's tall ceilings in here.
Rachael: Yeah, so my dad and I are tackling a lot of stuff because I live alone, and so sometimes it's just you need a second set of hands. And my dad is so, he's very handy and he can help me get the lawn mower running, and he has a recipe for natural weed killer that he makes and does, and he just cleaned my dryer vent for me. Just stuff I don't want to do, but it feels so nice having him here and helping me with stuff.
And then it's so funny how... I mean, tying back to the conversation at the beginning about having people around holds you accountable in a different way. I could get up every morning and sit outside and drink my coffee and listen to the birds and do my morning pages. Sometimes I do. This morning I made coffee for us and I was like, "Dad, let's sit outside." And it was so nice to just sit outside and bullshit. We didn't talk about anything-
Lauren: The existence of someone, the presence of someone else is the catalyst for you to do the thing, sit on the porch when you wouldn't necessarily just do it for you.
Rachael: Yeah. Just by yourself.
Lauren: I feel that so hard.
Rachael: Yeah. So I'm excited about, we're going to hang some solar lights on my fence and some string lights, and hopefully we can get my motorcycle running and the lawnmower sorted and just that kind of stuff.
Lauren: I love that. I was telling Kristle that you and I are going to tile that table in your backyard.
Rachael: Yes. And I was telling my dad about that project, and I think I want to paint the chairs a fun color to match the flower tile that we pick. Yeah. So excited about that project someday. It'll be a good week.
And then what I love about you, you're so generous with food and time and knowledge. You're so enthusiastic and positive, and you always are willing to see a lesson and see opportunity for growth, which encourages me and others to do the same thing. You're always down for anything I feel like, whether it's building Ikea furniture and gabbing or coming to a Halloween party or... You're just down for the fun, you're following the fun. And yeah, I always feel energized every single time we hang out because we fully run the range of discussing 13-year-old boy topics to philosophical approaches to life, and I feel like it's rare that you find people that you can run that full range with. And I love that about our friendship.
Lauren: Thank you. That's cute.
Rachael: Okay. Now you guys all have to do that to your friends, because look how nice it is.
Lauren: Wow.
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: Do it in person too, if you can.
Rachael: Yeah. So sweet. Yeah. Stare into each other's eyes and see how it feels. The vulnerability. Okay. Where can they find you on the internet?
Lauren: You can find me on the internet at Hom Sweet Hom, pretty much everywhere. That is H-O-M Sweet H-O-M.
Rachael: And I am Rachel Renee. Also, basically everywhere. I think sometimes there's an underscore thrown in at the end, but R-A-C-H-A-E-L R-E-N-A-E. Thank you for listening and watching.
Lauren: Thank you.