Listener Jen asked a really big question: "How do you easily add different creative projects while keeping it all in one brand? Or do you?" It was such a big question, Lauren and Rachael decided to dedicate an entire episode to unpacking this common creative quandary. For Chaotic Creatives, "following the fun" is a guiding light; but can too many disparate interests transform the fun house into a house of horrors for your audience? Don't worry! The most important tools to building a coherent personal brand are already in your possession.
Listener Jen asked a really big question: "How do you easily add different creative projects while keeping it all in one brand? Or do you?" It was such a big question, Lauren and Rachael decided to dedicate an entire episode to unpacking this common creative quandary. For Chaotic Creatives, "following the fun" is a guiding light; but can too many disparate interests transform the fun house into a house of horrors for your audience? Don't worry! The most important tools to building a coherent personal brand are already in your possession.
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The transcript for this episode can be found here!
Lauren: Hello, and welcome to Chaotic Creatives, a show about embracing the chaos that comes from living a creative life.
Rachael: We are your hosts, two self-proclaimed chaotic creative gals. I'm Rachael Renae, your internet hype gal. I am all about encouraging you to live a creative and confident life.
Lauren: And I am Lauren Hom. I am a designer, letter muralist and most recently culinary school graduate, so chef.
Rachael: Chef. Yes, chef. I just finished watching season three of The Bear, and by finished, I mean start and finish in one sitting.
Lauren: Good for you.
Rachael: Thank you.
Lauren: That's the way I like to- I feel like that's a very chaotic, creative trait is to binge.
Rachael: Yeah, yeah, like hyper fixation. It's like, "I am committing to this right now." It was so good.
Lauren: It feels good to have the laser focus though, even if you spent the whole day, I don't know how long it was, but you were on one topic and...
Rachael: I think it was like five hours.
Lauren: Okay, that's good.
Rachael: Yeah, and I was sick.
Lauren: Yeah.
Rachael: So, I didn't have a lot of energy.
Lauren: Perfect.
Rachael: I got up and ate snacks and-
Lauren: I heard it was great. I haven't started it yet because I've just been all over the place in other ways.
Rachael: Understandable. You haven't started the show at all?
Lauren: Not season three.
Rachael: Oh, okay. You're caught up... You watched two though?
Lauren: Yes.
Rachael: Okay. Of course. Okay.
Lauren: It's weird seeing content about it now, even though I haven't watched it. I follow a lot of food Instagram people. Everyone's talking about the chocolate cake from season three? No?
Rachael: Here's another thing about being an ADHD, chaotic creative who binge watches shows. It's already gone out of my brain. I really enjoyed it, but the chocolate cake, okay, let me think about it.
Lauren: I saw someone making a chocolate cake from The Bear, unless I misread the caption.
Rachael: I think that there was a chocolate cake in one of the previous seasons maybe that you could also get at a real restaurant in Chicago. Is that right?
Lauren: Maybe it was one of the desserts that Marcus made. I can't remember now.
Rachael: It doesn't matter. Anyway, it was great. Would I eat chocolate cake? 100%.
Lauren: Yeah.
Rachael: I took Livernois to get here, because I stopped at the ceramic studio, and we will get to our topic. I passed Good Cakes and Bakes and...
Lauren: I don't know what that is.
Rachael: Oh, okay. It's a queer-owned bakery in Detroit.
Lauren: Awesome.
Rachael: And their cake is great, and I almost was like, "Should I stop and get us all a slice of cake?" And then I was already late, so I did not, but please accept the thought of me doing that as thoughtfulness.
Lauren: Accepted.
Rachael: Okay. Lauren, what are we talking about today, now that I got us fully derailed?
Lauren: Great. Today we are not talking about cake. We are talking about building a personal brand, but not in the icky way. We got a question from someone who follows the Chaotic Creatives Instagram. Do you remember what exactly it was?
Rachael: Yeah, it was Jen. Thanks Jen for this question. And they asked how to add other creative projects without it... I'm paraphrasing, because my phone is recording where the question is living. How to add creative projects without diluting your brand or keeping it all under the same...
Lauren: One umbrella.
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: Yeah. Which is basically what a personal brand is. I think whether or not you cringe at the term or fully embrace it, it is a part of having to live someone on the internet for all of us. Even if you are not an influencer or use social media for work per se. I mean, we all heard it coming out of college, "Make sure you don't have any partying photos on your Facebook or whatever." I remember there was an app that like... Gosh, this is so 2012. Apparently it was an app where you could upload your... You type in your Facebook URL or something and it would export all of your Facebook photos, but with cats photoshopped over the beer in your hand. So you weren't...
Rachael: Incredible.
Lauren: You couldn't see the party.
Rachael: Back when technology did us good.
Lauren: Yeah, but regardless of how people feel, we all are cultivating some kind of online persona. And whether that's LinkedIn or... Pick your poison, right? And I think that it is valid to think about, especially if you're trying to leverage any of the internet to be part of your career or livelihood. It's a part of it. You get to choose. You are in the driver's seat, you get to choose what you highlight and what parts of your life you share. But I think as it pertains to creatives, artists, designers, makers, your personal brand is super important.
Rachael: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think we as Chaotic Creatives love to add different creative projects under our umbrella. And so it is challenging like Jen is asking about, because it's hard, I think, at least for me personally, to not dilute the things that I do really want to focus on with things I'm excited about. And so especially for me, my personal brand is me, Rachael Renae is me, and I am her. And when I built my following and my internet community, it's about my life and it started about my clothes and expanded to include my life. So I feel like I walk that line often of, "Okay, I want to share this thing," but if it's not actually contributing to the community engagement or a product that I'm promoting or a project that aligns with the values that I want to share, maybe it's not the best place to post it. I don't have a burner Instagram because I'm already on Instagram too much. I'm not trying to make my friends follow me so that I can post my food. I'll just not...
Lauren: Yeah, for your runoff content of stuff that doesn't make it to the main.
Rachael: Totally.
Lauren: It's too much work. Because even an account that is curating another part of your persona.
Rachael: Yeah, and I think for me, I can talk about my experience from the sense of personal brand as human and not designer, and then maybe you can share your perspective if that works for you. Okay. So I started my Instagram by doing style challenges, talked about personal style, talked about dressing for yourself and confidence building through style, using style and clothes as tools for creative expression. And for me, clothes are one facet of my creativity, but I don't think that I necessarily was making that clear to my audience.
So people came to my page to get style inspiration, to ask where I bought stuff. And what I would have rather been the message that was received was, "You can use clothes to build your confidence and you can use clothes as a creative tool. And so I started shifting my messaging, still posting a lot of the same stuff, but talking about it in this bigger umbrella of creative play. And so I think to answer the question of how do you add them, I think you do have to niche a little bit. Niche for now, like we talked about in a previous episode, but of course you can add something. It just has to be intentional and still aligned with your personal brand or your brand values if it's not a personal brand, if it's your creative business. What do you think about that?
Lauren: Yeah, totally. Even if you don't share much of your life online as a designer or artist or maker, I think that you still come through the work a lot of times, even the voice writing the caption. And because of that it's like... I like what you said about not wanting to share anything and everything that might dilute your message, because you have honed in on a general message of like, "Does this relate to building confidence and creativity? If not, then maybe you just let it be." It's like what we talked about at the end of our last recording session, off camera and off mic, about even if... My general read is if you feel like sharing something, share it. It's inconsequential. I think we've been on the internet for long enough now, in our adult years, that oftentimes you can get into a mind trap of like, "Should I share it? Should I not share it?" And then it's exhausting and it's like you should have just posted it and let it be.
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: You either do it... What's the phrase? Shit or get off the pot.
Rachael: Yeah. I believe this is the fourth consecutive episode that we mentioned shit.
Lauren: Oh, true, true.
Rachael: I love that.
Lauren: Waiting for that bidet sponsorship...
Rachael: Who Gives a Crap. Yeah. Yep. Sponsor us.
Lauren: Yep, Benefiber.
Rachael: Yeah, we'll take it all. Metamucil.
Lauren: Yes. Perfect. We were talking about even if it's something silly that might not relate to your business or what you're trying to promote, there is a very conventional marketing framework that's all about trust that we talked about. And it's basically those are the three pillars that in any marketing scenario... I didn't even learn this in school, I learned this on the internet 10 years ago.
But in any marketing scenario, you want to think of it in these three categories where you want people to get to know about your business and know your offers. And the other part is where it's like the person behind it or the brand. That's where the personal brand comes in. Maybe it is silly photos of your cat or what you are eating for breakfast that have nothing to do with your business, but that's part of the like factor, where you get to show off a little bit of you, which is where behind the scenes and some personal stuff comes in.
And then there's the trust part where... That's where you might be sharing things like customer testimonials or things that build trust in your services or product. Maybe it's behind the scenes if you're an illustrator or a letterer on how you create your artwork. And so people are like, "Oh, that's how it's done." Or, "Here are the five steps you need to commission a mural or something like that. And I think a lot of the personal brand stuff can fall into the category. And so if anyone's ever... I think a lot of us are in this place where if you feel weird about social media and you're not sure what to share anymore, if you feel like sharing anything, share it.
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: It's better than nothing.
Rachael: Yeah, and I think one thing that... I agree with you. Just share it if you're inspired to share it, because truly that authenticity does come through. I think
Lauren: Yes, you can tell when someone's excited about something or even the stuff you find funny that might be off-putting to some other people or maybe other people won't get it, but there is a core group what you consider... You've mentioned it, your perfect people. Those people want to see that. There are plenty of people who don't care about a cat, for example, but there are plenty of people who do, and that's not going to be the thing that makes or breaks your business.
Rachael: Totally, and I think that finding what your Venn diagram of you and your brand and your content is, is... It can be broad. I think you're right. Some people might think of me as style, cats, nachos. A lot of people send me nacho content. Love that. Thank you so much for seeing me. I think it's all about being consistent. If you are a florist and then you decide you want to try hand lettering and all of your photos were you designing florals, you talking to the camera, final photos of your pieces, and then all of a sudden it was hand lettering, and then a month later you decide that your hobby is working out. I don't know. Or you decide that you want to start doing home renovations, whatever. All of those are you. Those are valid multifaceted interests, but I think it's important to identify where it fits into your personal brand and be consistent.
So if you're doing a switch from florals to hand lettering, maybe stick with it for 30 days. Make a bunch of work and niche for now so that people get used to seeing that content for you. If we're talking about adding creative outlets to your personal brand on the internet, which is a very niche subject I guess. When I'm thinking of maybe professionals, if I saw you all of a sudden start posting gym workout videos, I might be like, "Oh, that is a change, but good for her." If you were consistent about it, my mindset would shift very quickly. We are very adaptable, stretchy brain humans, and I think it's the consistency and the intentionality. If it's what's lighting you up right now, great, talk about it, but be consistent and show us how it fits under your umbrella of your personal brand values. Does that make sense?
Lauren: Yeah, totally. And I mean before we started recording, I think we came to the conclusion too, that there is no one size fits all answer to this question. The more different things you do and feel like sharing or publishing on the internet, no matter where that is, it could be in your portfolio, it could be on your Instagram, the more stuff you do, the more... It's more of a trail mix of things, right? You're adding more to the mix where sure, it can become more confusing for a new customer or someone who's just stumbling across you to be like, "What does this person do? They do all these different things," but it's up to you to figure out does it bring you joy to do all these things and are you okay with having more of a mixed bag offering versus... And then you might appeal to more people that way too, if you do lots of things. It's also more to manage and more to be consistent about or update. And sometimes there's one-off stuff, but maybe...
There was a time in my life where the specificity and container of just being a letterer felt really cozy and nice and snug. I'm going to use the cat analogy, because you have cats. It's like how cats love cat beds or spaces that are too small for them where they're curled up in there and they're a little snug. If it feels good to have a niche, roll with it until you outgrow it and until it doesn't feel good anymore, because I think on the extremities, right, a niche, one thing can feel very stifling, and then you get some creative angst and then the chaos bubbles up and you might break out of that mold or do a full pivot. On the other hand, like what you were saying with, "Do I share this or do I not share this? How is it related?" When you're a chaotic creative and you have a lot of interests, you can be all over the place in a way that's no longer helpful to you.
We are adults and we do have to find some focus even to just finish a project, whether that's a quilt or a mug. And I think seeing a thing through is always very gratifying. So it's really a trade-off. I don't think it's better to be one thing or to have multiple interests, it's whatever feels right to you. And I thought I was going to be just a letterer for a long time until I started to want to incorporate other things. Once you start to feel that itch of, "I want to try something else," usually what happens for me is it starts as a hobby and then I do it for a little bit to see how it feels. And if I like it enough, then I might integrate it into what I'm sharing online and what I'm trying to promote and attach to my name. Because you're right, what we share, what we talk about is how people will know us.
Rachael: What you do really well is yeah, you're adding these different creative things, but you've incorporated so many elements of yourself and your style of design into them, like our new mural.
Lauren: Oh, yeah.
Rachael: If you're watching the video, exciting.
Lauren: Just giant papaya.
Rachael: Is that what's... Yes, it is a papaya.
Lauren: Yes. I hosted my very first in-person mural painting workshop in here, and...
Rachael: I love it.
Lauren: They did such a good job. But you are correct in saying that even the mural getting swapped out, it's in... We designed it. It's still within a realm-
Rachael: We, as in Lauren and Kristle, not me, I had nothing to do with it.
Lauren: Kristle and I designed it. Rachael was sitting in front of it.
Rachael: I'm modeling it.
Lauren: And I think obviously I enjoy more in life. There's more to me than just design and food, right? But I think inadvertently, this was not a plan that I had 10 years ago when I started my business. These are just the topics, creativity and food are two topics that I find myself coming back to again and again in my personal life, when I'm alone. Especially living alone now, I'm just like, "Oh, this is what I do in my spare time. I make art and I cook. Sometimes together." And because I have...
Those are two of my strongest interests. I think that that has just been a natural way to niche a bit where no matter what the medium I'm working in, it's probably going to be food related. Or even if it's not food related, people are not surprised when they see that, because I've been talking about it for 10 years. If I push a gym content, it would probably take a little bit longer for people to acclimate to that. And the gap between... Well, there is part of relationship between gym content and food content, but the food stuff that I talk about is about pleasure and enjoyment, not about nutrition. So that might be a bigger jump.
Rachael: Yeah. Oh man. I'm just thinking of examples of people that I've followed where they've shifted, but I'm going to talk more about myself.
Lauren: Do it. This is your podcast.
Rachael: I think what's important and what I was trying to do very intentionally is change the messaging without changing what I was posting. So I was still following my fun of getting dressed and making quilts, making mugs, doing the creative things that I was already doing. And I shared sort of my creative projects as the like and trust pillars. Like, "Learn more about me and my personal life." But people responded to that, and I really liked working on that stuff and sharing it. And so I kept thinking like, "Okay, this is stifling. My cat bed is too small. How do I expand and still have it feel really good?" And what that was for me was changing the messaging. Now my content is quite a bit different. I don't do Get Ready with Me videos every day like I used to, but it took some time for people to get used to that.
Lauren: Totally.
Rachael: And I remember the first time I saw somebody in person and they were like, "Prioritize play." And I was like, "Yes. Okay." So me harping on this thing over and over again to basically expand my umbrella, to be larger and incorporate more of who I am, is working. And that's how people see me now. And I think if I start to feel stifled by this, and I kind of am right now, using the play message, and I think because it doesn't immediately resonate with people... Playing does, absolutely, but I think perhaps it might come across as me saying, "Abandon responsibilities and play instead." And what I mean is follow your own fun, prioritize your own creativity, and you can find what lights you up by playing. Play is a tool. It's a strategy to use to find the things that can be very fulfilling in your life, which is a mouthful and hard to, I guess share in a short little quip.
So that's why I went with prioritize play. But I'm really, I'm noodling on, "Do I want to change how I message this, because I have a dress for yourself course." And really what I'm trying to share is that I want people to live for themselves. I'm demonstrating that with my life. I'm living in a way that is perfectly curated to me, and I want to encourage other people to do that through confidence and their creativity. So do I change my messaging to live for yourself? But then is that too, I don't know, sport motivational in the realm of that? I don't know.
So yeah, I think when you feel like you're... You are feeling trapped... Not trapped, I don't feel trapped. Maybe a little bit stifled by the messaging that you've used or the creative umbrella that you're using, how can you take a step beyond that to expand instead of completely pivot? How can you say in your Instagram bio instead of, "Enthusiastic style gal," which is what mine was, helping you get dressed with color and I don't know, patterns or something. I don't remember what it used to be. And now it says "Gabbing about play, hyping you in confidence and creativity," which is still the umbrella of what I'm talking about.
Lauren: Yes.
Rachael: Does all that make sense?
Lauren: Yes.
Rachael: I feel like I talked a lot of circles there.
Lauren: That's fine. It's completely fine.
Rachael: You're used to it.
Lauren: I think this is a testament. I mean, obviously both of us love to talk in circles, but it's a testament to how tricky this topic is. And there is no easy answer because when you're creative, so much of yourself is in your work. Even when you try to remove yourself from your work... The thing that I'm thinking about is street artists who conceal their identity like a Banksy or something that's maybe an extreme of... Maybe it goes so far where the mystique becomes the persona, but most of us don't operate that way and don't want to operate that way. I think a lot of us who built audiences on social media where we incorporated some of our personality, were just... Maybe it's our age where we got on the internet at a time where you're like, "I want people to know who I am." You're a teenager when you got MySpace or Facebook.
And I think some people, it feels more comfortable to share more of yourself online than others. And it's a really choose your own adventure kind of thing. There are so many benefits to sharing some bits of your personal life and your personality on your Instagram or through your social media, but if it doesn't feel good, don't do it. Just share your work. And I think to Jen's question, I make work and projects that first and foremost, like you were saying with your message, are exciting and fun for me, and that is the first... That's the priority. And then I share them online. And if they resonate with people, great. There was a year where when I was traveling the world, I did a travel project. I haven't done one in a long time, because I haven't traveled like that in a while, and just because I incorporated that for a year doesn't mean it's forever.
It is the niche for now thing. The niche for now framework that I teach is just you find a thing that resonates with you and seems to resonate with other people, whether that is a topic, a medium, a skill, and you use that as your jumping off point to then continue to build that skill or operate around that realm. And then you add... You incorporate one new thing a year. It's almost like you're trying it on for a year. And maybe a year is too long. If someone's being like, "That's way too long." Maybe it's six months, maybe it's a month.
Rachael: I mean, it could be a 30-day challenge.
Lauren: Totally.
Rachael: You're building a skillset. Maybe you're doing... Maybe you're traveling for a month, you're taking a sabbatical from your job, and if you're doing a drawing every day for the month that you're traveling, that's an entire body of work. And if you're sharing consistently and intentionally about that thing, it's people getting to connect with you on that creative project. So I think, whatever the timeframe is, incorporate something, but be intentional about it.
Lauren: Yeah, totally. Or I even think about even some silly stuff, like things that aren't traditionally considered marketing. A good example is a couple of years ago when everyone was watching, when it came out on, I think it was HBO? The Last of Us? That mushroom end of the world thing.
Rachael: Yeah, HBO.
Lauren: I remember watching it, which is surprising for me, because it's way too dark for what I would typically watch.
Rachael: I was a late adopter because I was like, "Is it spooky," but then people were like, "No, it's not in the way that..."
Lauren: It's a good story.
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: It's still a little too spooky for me.
Rachael: It was the perfect amount of spooky for me. Yeah.
Lauren: There's some stuff I wish I could unsee.
Rachael: Sure. Related to humans though?
Lauren: What?
Rachael: Not monsters. Human behavior.
Lauren: Oh, yeah. I mean, it's mostly the monsters, visually.
Rachael: Gotcha. Okay.
Lauren: But this designer, this interior designer that I like, Dabito, he had posted in a story about one of the episodes and I responded to it, because I was like, "Oh my God, I loved this one too." And that's completely unrelated to his normal interior design content. Maybe the TV was styled nicely. I don't know. But the thing you feel called to share, or if you would text it to your group text being like, "Did anyone see this?" Or, "I'm so excited about this." You never know when those are little signals. They're points of connection that you're opening up. Anything you share in your story, on your feed, it's offering people information that they can then respond to. And so I responded to his story. I was like, "Oh my God, I love that episode." He followed me back and messaged me back and invited me to his book launch party the next year.
And we connected that way. And our professions overlap enough where maybe we'll collaborate someday, who knows? But it's like what we were talking about... Did we talk about this in the last episode? With the networking? With the networking.
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: Think of professional development and networking as making friends. That is the easiest chillest way to look at it, where you're not going to show up with weird energy. Where you just look for opportunities to connect with other people and give people opportunities to connect with you. And most of the time... I mean, if something you post that you're excited about is so offensive to someone else, they can leave. And that's actually a good thing. It's like a filtration thing.
Rachael: Yeah, they're not your perfect people.
Lauren: Yeah. The analogy I've always used... This is the first time I gave a presentation and I got a big laugh from the crowd, and I was like, "Oh, that's interesting." Again, feedback. The analogy I use is you want to think about it like, if someone unfollows you... Your least favorite thing in the bag of trail mix is showing itself out. You could think about people who unfollow you as the raisins that you didn't want anyways, and you're like, "Great, I wish they were cranberries," or, "I wish they were chocolate chips."
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: I think that giving people information about yourself... I think a lot of what we talk about is all framing too. If you feel weird about... If you're like, "Oh, I want to share myself online, but I don't know what to share," it's whatever you feel... Whatever you're excited about, someone else is excited about too, and maybe someone isn't, but most of the time people are just scrolling by. It's not a big deal, but it does give people who are on the same wavelength some reason to contact you or engage with you, even if it's someone who follows you, who's like, "Oh, Rachael and I have the same pants," or "Rachael likes the same... Rachael loves oysters. I love oysters."
It's little stuff like that that it's exactly how you build connection with someone in person. When Kristle and I first started working together and we had whatever is the closest thing to an interview, it wasn't really an interview. I was like, "I'm just going to hire you for the summer." But we met for coffee as a little meet before we committed to anything, and I found out she was vegetarian. I was like, "Oh, easy." It has nothing to do with our professional lives, but it's a connection point that makes you feel... Makes you trust somebody.
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: Yeah, and that makes you feel closer to them or maybe that you would want to work with them or purchase from them in the future. These things totally matter.
Rachael: I think this is a perfect example of why there is enough room for everyone's art in the world, because even if you and another person, were making the exact same artwork, if I'm resonating more with what you share as a person because we have the same sense of humor, or we like the same food, you're going to be more drawn, or I'm going to be more drawn to you in this analogy. I'm like, "Who's who in the analogy?" And I think absolutely, it's about connection. We are all looking for connection ultimately, and yes, inspiration and yes, education online, but really it's connection. I truly talk about my Instagram audience, I say that in air quotes, as a community because we have rapport. There are people that I talk to that have become my in real life friends, or there are people that I talk to that I probably will never meet in real life, but we chat about things. And for some people yeah, it might be the oysters. For some people, it's quilting. It's learning about people, and like you said, networking, but it's making friends.
Lauren: Yeah. It reminds me of when you said that people will send you nacho content all the time. It gives people a reason to think of you.
Rachael: Which is amazing.
Lauren: That's marketing in and of itself. It's not in a nefarious way. It's just like you want to be top of mind or have reasons for people to think of you and be like, "Oh yeah, Rachel..." Or the thing that she does or the thing she's selling... It reminds me of when I first started out on Instagram, my Instagram bio was, "Designer letter, Cheeto lover." That was just my little quippy thing. I kid you not, the years that that was in my bio, even though Cheetos are not an integral part of my work, I don't talk about it much, but it was in my Instagram bio, and I do enjoy a Cheeto. For a while, every conference I went to or workshop I taught, people would bring me Cheetos.
Rachael: That's amazing.
Lauren: Yeah, and I remember telling my lettering friend Gemma about this, and she was like, "Oh, that's amazing. I should put, 'I love money,' in my Instagram bio."
Rachael: Incredible.
Lauren: But you give people information about yourself as a way for them to relate to you.
Rachael: Yeah, exactly.
Lauren: I think that's maybe the most generous framing of a reason why it's okay to integrate your personality and stuff about you that might not be related to your work into your social media, but for some people, they like to be a little more private. Jen's original question, you might just want to do one thing, like a Japanese artisan who has only ever done one thing their whole life, like the sushi guy, the Jiro Dreams of Sushi guy.
Rachael: Mm-hmm.
Lauren: It's a tradeoff. When you focus so much on one thing and you dedicate so much time, you can become a specialist, an expert, but that might feel really good to you. For chaotic creatives I think a lot of us are willing to commit to a thing, but we also have lots of other interests as well. And I think those need to be nurtured too. But it really is up to you. I don't think anyone goes in with a five-year plan of, "This is going to be my... I'm going to incorporate this, this, and this." You go off of some intuition too.
Rachael: Following your fun.
Lauren: Totally. One of the benefits of, which you and I have both done, one of the benefits of integrating your persona or personality into your work and sharing that as part of your personal brand and your business, whether it's through the copywriting or the color palette, showing your personality off, you do become the umbrella. So even if it's like... I don't know in what world I would be posting gym content, never say never. Meg's been posting gym content lately.
Rachael: I know, and I love it.
Lauren: Which is amazing.
Rachael: I'm going to interrupt you, because Meg is who came to mind, and I feel like them posting gym content is not what they do for work at all, but the joy that they are experiencing, I literally have thought about messaging them and being like, "How did you do your programming?" Because it's so interesting, and I feel connected, and Meg has also posted about liquid cheese nachos. So those are things that they don't do as work, but I feel like, "Oh my God, Meg is my people.
Lauren: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that if you are excited about it, that is the only metric you really need to use is, "Should I post this?" If you're jazzed about it... People get excited by excited people. I feel like this is so much of the criticism of people who have a lot of charisma online. It's like you can be a low-key cult leader by just being jazzed, which is so wild. And listen, there's no cult leaders who are watching this podcast or listening to this podcast. Trust that if you are excited about something, and it's going to be like art or hobbies, that's enough to get people excited, even if they can't really relate to that thing.
Rachael: I think it gives people permission to be excited. And I think that our culture teaches us that we have to not get jazzed and that people who are jazzed are obnoxious, and we are fighting against that stigma. We're not chill girls. I mean, at least speaking on my own behalf, I'm not chill. I want to be excited. I'm enthusiastic every time I talk. Are you listening to my voice right now? Are you kidding me?
Lauren: Sorry, I have to tell you this. I think people listening will think it's funny too. So every week for the last five years, every Monday, my dad and I, he'll call me on his way to work and we'll catch up that way. He was talking about, I think he follows the podcast Instagram, and he was like, "Rachael looks so cool." And then he was like, "She just looks so chill." And I was like, "Rachael's not chill. What are you talking about?"
Rachael: I think that's so funny, because... It's because the tattoos, right? But you have... I don't know.
Lauren: I don't know.
Rachael: He just doesn't know me.
Lauren: Which actually made me feel better, because I was like, "Oh, my dad clearly doesn't listen to the podcast, because he probably doesn't listen to any podcasts.
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: Which is very helpful.
Rachael: Oh, that's so funny. Yeah, I'm so chill. I saw this meme and I shared it today on the internet, obviously. Where else would I share it? Where it was talking about how there's so many neurodivergent people as content creators, because the format of social media allows someone who is maybe so jazzed about rocks to have a platform to only talk about rocks, and that enthusiasm shines through. And then the people who are also jazzed by listening to someone talk about rocks, find their community. But in real life, maybe that was a kid who was really excited about a rock and someone was like, "Ugh, that's..."
Lauren:
That's the rock kid.
Rachael: Yeah, and so in-person relationships perhaps shamed that enthusiasm, but now it's getting an opportunity to shine on the internet, and so people are able to connect in that way.
Lauren: That's really fascinating.
Rachael: Isn't it lovely? Yeah. And it said something about now you are not rolling your eyes because you can watch in the privacy of your own home without worrying about someone ridiculing you for being excited about this.
Lauren: Right. Wow, that's a very astute observation.
Rachael: Absolutely.
Lauren: And also it leads me to a point I was going to mention, because I think a lot of what we talk about in this podcast bounces between aspirational and then practical, because I think that's just the world we live in.
Rachael: Mm-hmm.
Lauren: It's what you just said about the specificity of someone who loves rocks and this is their rock Instagram, or this is the foraging Instagram, or the lettering or the fashion, that is also what the algorithm has historically rewarded is specificity, which totally makes sense. I actually... We were talking about this months ago, but I read Taylor Lorenz's new book, Extremely Online, about the history of the modern internet and internet culture jumping from blogs to social media platforms to our current ecosystem. And if you think about blog, go back to... If anyone's in their thirties, they can probably resonate with this.
Rachael: Oh my gosh, Design*Sponge.
Lauren: Yeah, blogging days. It's like if you think about... We could actually take some tips from the blogging days, fashion bloggers, design blogs. These blogs had a general category, but you also knew the person writing them. A lot of times they'd share some personal stuff. And if you run a design blog and you're a designy person, people are probably going to be interested in the way you design your home and your clothes too. And you might get questions. If those seem like fun to talk about, you might talk about those two. But there was a general umbrella that allowed people to talk about different facets of style or design or things, food,
And you deviate from it sometimes, but it usually is under one general theme. And I think that that's the framework I've adopted for what I share online, is I typically only share stuff in terms of my creative work in the projects. I usually only do projects, longer term ones at least, that relate to some kind of professional goal because I only have so many hours in a day, and I'm trying to keep my business going and grow my business and try to be creatively satiated as well.
So you're trying to satisfy all of those at the same time. I do plenty of ceramics projects that I'm not planning on monetizing, that don't make it onto Instagram, because I can't be bothered to shoot content with that, because it's already a slog to try to finish the ceramics project. So I think I tend to go with what feels easy to share, and then also what projects I can work on longer term, where the interest sustains. That's what I typically tend to share. But Jen, if you're listening, I have never thought that my work falls under a specific umbrella, because I've... Especially 12 years in, I bounced around a lot, but I think from the outside looking in, things often look a lot more considered and tight than they actually are from the person running the thing. I'm just doing things that interest me.
Rachael: Yeah, and I think that that ultimately is the best advice. Follow your fun, and if it's an offering that you want to add, just make sure that you're being intentional about how you're talking about it, because you are interested in it and you were interested in what you formally had offered. So there has to be a through line, and it might just be your interest, but I think the way that you can create an offering that still... It may be different but is connected, is just how you talk about it.
Lauren: A hundred percent. Actually, something just came to mind because Kristle and I were talking about this, what you mentioned about how your messaging... How you talk about play, how you talk about fashion as a way, it's a modality to self-confidence to express yourself. I think a good example of how to integrate your personality or your interests, let's say you have lots of different interests, lots of different hobbies, you can find a way to tie it back into your core offering or your business if you're using Instagram from marketing. Someone who took my workshop, Kelsey, shout out to Kelsey.
Rachael: Hi, Kelsey.
Lauren: Kelsey is a website designer specifically for photographers, and I started following her after she came to the workshop, a reel popped up that was her and her friends having a beer at Emo Nite, which my heart, right?
Rachael: Oh, love that.
Lauren: My heart. So good. And again, connection point. I was like, "Ooh, cut from the same cloth," even though it has nothing to do with our work, and I rarely talk about emo music, but if you've been following me for a long time...
Rachael: You had that Taking Back Sundae project…
Lauren: That's true. That's true. I feel like you can look at me and maybe guess. Same with you.
Rachael: Hundred percent.
Lauren: Anyone who's in the creative industry know who has tattoos and who still wears Vans sometimes.
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: Anyways, Kelsey had a video of her and her friends at Emo Nite, but the messaging, because it ties back into her business, her messaging was like, "Being able to enjoy Emo Nite, because I know I have a website that's doing work for my business behind the scenes.
Rachael: Exactly.
Lauren: Amazing. It's such a great way to, how can I take my interests and tie the messaging back into my business? That's actually a two for one, where it's like, "I like so many things. I do so many things." Even Meg posting gym content in their stories, if they wanted to, which it doesn't seem like this is the goal, which is great for them too, but if they wanted to tie that into creativity or business or whatever, an offer, they could. We as humans, even though a lot of visual creatives are like, "I don't know how to write." Yes, you do.
Rachael: You do.
Lauren: I think that you can use—
Rachael: Write how you talk. I use language like “jazzed”, “pal.”
Lauren: Right? Write an Instagram caption like you were texting a friend. That's the best format.
Rachael: Yes.
Lauren: For sure.
Rachael: Perfect.
Lauren: And I think that we are creative and we can figure out a way to tie it in. I think in the last episode I talked about getting into foraging. It's not specifically cooking related or even... It is food related, but it's still a little bit of a stretch. I'm sure I could tie that into something about using what you have or seeing things through a new lens. There's a way to tie it all together, and the hobbies and interests that you have aren't accidental either. For some reason, you might be drawn towards something like mural painting, for the same reason you're drawn towards another thing and you just have to connect the dots between them.
Rachael: And I think it's a little bit of a reflection exercise, right? We're recording this episode on July 1st. I just did a six-month reflection journaling session for myself yesterday, and I was looking at what I set as personal and professional goals, and some of them haven't been met halfway through the year, but I've also done a lot of things that I didn't write on that list, because I followed the fun and was actually presented with a different opportunity or made an opportunity out of that. And so it's like if you stick with your interests and then you reflect back like, "Oh, actually that thing that feels like it was a random opportunity that someone gave me, wow, look how aligned it is with all of this other stuff that I've been doing." And I think what Kelsey did... Kelsey?
Lauren: Yeah.
Rachael: Is something that my creative business coach talks about a lot in terms of kick-starting your Instagram to work for you from a marketing perspective. The content of the video, of the reel doesn't super matter if your message is on point with what you're trying to do. And I think, like you said, that one was a perfect example of a twofer where you're showing who you are authentically connecting with your perfect people, but then being like, "Hey, this is how it ties to my business." So thinking about just ultimately the messaging, I think a little bit of brain dumping and mind mapping, as they say, could help you find the umbrella of your two interests that seem completely unrelated. Because they're not, because you are a single person who is interested in all these things. You're the commonality.
Lauren: Yeah. I also think if anyone is listening to this and feels overwhelmed, one thing I want to say is...
Rachael: Because we talk in circles.
Lauren: No, no, no. I think this is an existential question for a lot of creatives. A lot of people don't like to market their work because they're like, "How do I do it though? I know how to make the work, but I don't know how to piece it all together." Our brains want some kind of through line or narrative and we want it to make sense. I think that the only way, a step two, figuring out that through line and figuring out how to organize things and how you might want to have your different categories of things you do is, do too much at first and then filter down. You can never filter down if you don't have enough source material. So if anyone's feeling overwhelmed, post all your stuff for now. If you're overthinking it to the point of, "Does this make it to the main, should this go in the stories," post all of it for now, but make sure to build in some reflection time of like, "Oh, I've been making a lot of work around these themes."
We've talked about this before, but one of the best parts of going to design school or any kind of classroom environment was the group discussion of having third parties look at your work and be able to see something that maybe you couldn't see in the moment. Because when you're in it making the work, you're not thinking about these things. All you know is like, "I want to make this thing." Take some time to look back at what you've made, and I guarantee you after a year of making a bunch of stuff, even if you feel like it's haphazard, sharing the haphazard stuff is better than nothing.
And I'm saying this as someone who hasn't shared a lot in the last year and is trying to pep talk herself, so please take that... Just know you're not alone. When you look back, you will likely be able to see some through line, whether it's a topic or a certain color that you're using again and again, or just a vibe. I don't know what it is, but you can't reflect on nothing, so you may as well make all your stuff and then you can make a decision after that.
Rachael: Yeah, absolutely. And for me, who I'm not making a product, but I'm still feeling like I'm using my creativity when I'm making content, getting dressed, designing my home, whatever. One of the reflection questions that I asked myself was like, "Is the message that I'm trying to send being received?" And by the message, I mean, are people feeling encouraged to dress for themselves? Are people feeling encouraged to try a new hobby? One of the best ways that you can check if it's being received is to ask. I mean, I know I made you do feedback on me last time, but I've also done this on Instagram. I even said when I was in that transition phase of style to creativity, I said, "Hey, I've been sharing a lot about play, and I think it's resonating. A lot of you have sent me messages, but I'm asking officially for feedback. Are you able to give me an example of how I've encouraged you to be more creative or play in your life?" And people gave me so many beautiful messages, which I still use as testimonials on my sales pages, because that's what I want. I want to make sure that the message that I'm trying to put across is being received in the way that I'm intending.
Lauren: Totally.
Rachael: And you can do that with your work. You could post a bunch of stuff for a month no matter what the content is, and then ask your audience, "Do you sense any themes? I'm doing a reflection." It can be group feedback.
Lauren: Yeah, "What do you associate with me? What are the things that stand out?"
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: Because oftentimes too, you can't see it yourself. You might be just sharing bits about your life and this, this, and this, but you never know what's coming across, which is what we've talked about in previous episodes where I mentioned if you're monetizing your creativity, the difference then is you're now in dialogue with an audience and a potential customer base. It doesn't make it better or worse, it's just you do need to be realistic about how you're being received, so then you can tweak your messaging, tweak what you share. Yeah, absolutely.
Rachael: Cool. I think we're probably close to time. Do we want to try to summarize that? I feel like my summary-
Lauren: Sure. What was your takeaway?
Rachael: In our ramblings are basically follow your fun. Do the thing for you. Don't create an offering because someone you admire is, "Oh, Lauren started offering a mural class. Maybe I need to offer a mural class." Don't do that unless you are inspired by the mural class yourself. So follow your fun and then try stuff and reflect, and you are your brand likely, and it's okay that you have multifaceted expressions of your creativity.
Lauren: Oh, yeah. I also just got a little download from something I used to say all the time that it's so quick, but it's something, this is back from my just lettering days of, "How do I make a cohesive Instagram page? I have so many interests." One hack, I feel like this is something at the beginning we'll be like, "Watch to the end to hear though this one crazy hack." It's really not that.
Rachael: Listen for 60 minutes and then we'll tell you at the end.
Lauren: It's really not that wild. And then someone comments on YouTube, I'll save you the time and puts the hack."
Rachael: Go to 59:16 and...
Lauren: Oh my gosh, if you are struggling, "How do I bring this all together," choose a consistent aesthetic theme, whether that is a color palette or a certain backdrop that you shoot against for... Incorporate... Maybe it's like every single reel that you post, there's something purple in it, and that becomes your thing. I don't know. But as my background, as a designer, I always tell people, if you feel like your topics and stuff are all over the place, pick a color palette. That's your color palette for the year or maybe forever.
Rachael: That's a good idea.
Lauren: That's a really great way to at least have some cohesion of... There are some people who are like, "This is my color." For example, to bring her up again. Kelsey from my workshop loves this slime green color. Her hairs dyed that color, her nails were that color. Her website is that color. And I'm like, "That's amazing."
Rachael: I envy that commitment to one color.
Lauren: Yeah, and maybe you switch it up over time, but it's enough to get you started to quell some of the like, "Is it all consistent?" Pick your favorite colors. Pick a palette to work within, because then if you're an artist, you can bounce between mediums. It's like murals, design, lettering, even photography. You could incorporate similar tones or colors in there. And conversely, you could also tighten the themes.
So let's say you really love food as a topic. That would then allow you to play around with all the other things. You could use lots of different colors and lots of different styles, but if you can do a little brainstorm and some reflection, like Rachael said, to just narrow in on what's one thing I can commit to, that I know I'm an adult now. I know what I love. There's this thing that just keeps coming up for me. It's what I stay up late researching. It just comes back up. When I have a day off, this is the thing I do, or the thing I gravitate towards in my wardrobe palette. Just pick a through line. There's probably something there already at this point in your work right now that you could just use as a jumping off point.
Rachael: Mm-mm. And I'm going to add one more to that list, because I love those. And I think this is top of mind because... And we've talked about creativity challenges. I think giving yourself 30 days or even two weeks to focus in on one thing. Maybe you don't want to pick a color palette, or maybe you don't want to pick a theme, but you want to practice your drawing. Okay, so have one consistent thing, I guess, for a certain amount of time to build up your, I guess, feelings. Learn about your feelings about that particular thing where whether it's slime green or a particular skill that you're trying to learn. If you can commit to something for two weeks...
Lauren: Try it on.
Rachael: See if you're resistant to it. See if you are really inspired by it.
Lauren: It's like your self-portrait challenge.
Rachael: It is. I feel like I learned so much from failing at that because I thought that because I can draw means that I should, and I think it's the capitalism mindset of capitalize on all your skills. And I don't want to draw. I don't want to draw. I am never going to be a sketchbook girly in the coffee shop, and that's okay. I would rather focus on the hobbies that I daydream about. So giving yourself a challenge to stick with the color, stick with the theme, or just do a skill for that amount of time, gives you a container. We love to talk about containers to see if that's something that you want to expand your umbrella to include.
Lauren: Yeah, absolutely.
Rachael: Okay.
Lauren: Yeah, I mean that ties in to so much of what we talk about on this podcast is just, I think in this age too, of scrolling and getting so many different kinds of messages, and our attention is so fragmented, at least I noticed mine being very fragmented, to give something attention for a prolonged period is such a gift and is sacred in this day and age. And I frame it that way where it's like, "Yes, I have a lot of interests, but I'm going to spend more time on one at a time and slowly layer them and integrate them." And who knows? I started as a lettering artist. I still do plenty of lettering projects, but maybe 20 years into my career, I let it go. Maybe it's something that just gets, it got added to the menu and it got taken off the menu.
You're allowed to do that too. It's still on the menu for me right now. But yeah, I mean, I do like... Man, we were going to do a wrap up and now we're just recording a whole other segment, but it's related. A lot of times I use food analogies, because that's the way my brain works. Think about restaurant menus. Sometimes you go into a place they serve one thing, "This is a mac and cheese shop, and we only serve mac and cheese." Great. You know what's there, but you're only going to go there when you want mac and cheese.
On the other hand, we've all been in a diner where they have eight different sections and cuisines, or they've got pasta, but they also have sandwiches, and they also have Chinese food somehow. And you don't think of any of those things as they're going to be particularly good per se. So I think while there are some restaurants that are fusion and have a couple different things, oftentimes it's like the 80/20 rule where even if you're doing a lot of things, 20% of what you're working on is probably lighting you up the most, and you should pay attention to that.
Rachael: Yeah. I think that that's really important, especially for business. Definitely pursue it as a hobby, but you don't have to share every hobby that you do on the internet. Maybe that's what you share in stories where you're like...
Lauren: Stories is a great place for anything.
Rachael: Yeah. This is where I'm feeling inspired and getting some creative energy. But in your true offerings, you're not going to have... The menu example is perfect, because immediately I was like, "Well, I don't really trust that anything's going to be exceptional." And the mac and cheese shop might not be exceptional either, but you know what you're going in for.
Lauren: Again, you're in dialogue with a customer now, and this is only if you're monetizing your stuff. If you're not, post whatever you want, do it-
Rachael: Post whatever you want.
Lauren: Be free. Be free. If you are not monetizing your creativity, share whatever you want.
Rachael: And by sharing, we also mean on your website, and not necessarily just Instagram, I think, but Instagram is the platform that we both use to grow.
Lauren: Yeah. This designer that I know, Timothy Goodman, he described it as he would use his Instagram as a testing ground for what he might want to integrate into his portfolio. It's just a test zone, and you could think of it one step back too, where maybe your Instagram stories are your first pass of testing it out, seeing who's watching the stories, getting some feedback, seeing how it feels to share it, and then maybe if it goes well, then you start integrating it into your main feed content. It's whatever makes you feel comfortable. Some people just intuitively know, "I want to share this. I want the public to see it." Sometimes you're a little more hesitant and you're like, "I'll just dip my toe in," and stories are a great place to do that because it's 24 hours.
Rachael: Absolutely. Yeah. Well, I hope Jen, that we gave you something that you can latch onto.
Lauren: This is Rachel's first time out of the house in like a week because she was sick.
Rachael: Oh my gosh. I've been sick for a week and I haven't seen people, so I just want to chat. I also took my ADHD medication today, which makes me focused on and excited about the thing, which I mean, that's not really different from how I am normally, but my brain is fully in this right now.
Lauren: Great. I love it, because we could probably talk for another two hours.
Rachael: I absolutely could because...
Lauren: And we can, but Kristle needs to go home. I'm not a bad boss.
Rachael: Yeah. I think, and I want to gab offline about other topics. See, we're not going to put all of the whole menu on the podcast episode.
Lauren: Exactly. I mean, the podcast title is a great container. It's broad enough for us to explore, but it's tight enough where the audience, someone who doesn't know us, is like, "Okay. It's about creativity at the very least."
Rachael: Yeah. Might be pretty chaotic to listen to.
Lauren: The chaotic part lets us off the hook a little bit because it could go off the rails, but in general, our center of gravity is creativity. Rachael, is there anything you want to promote?
Rachael: I am not prepared to promote anything at this point.
Lauren: Great.
Rachael: How about you? Oh, well, we did have to cancel the Chaotic Creative meetup because I got sick and I'm glad that I didn't...
Lauren: We didn't pick another date.
Rachael: Spread any gross junk. We didn't pick another date. But I think what we're probably going to do is have it be a post-season one meetup. We want to make sure that we have enough time to let you know that it's happening and not just throw it together haphazardly. Sometimes we need that.
Lauren: Reign in the chaos.
Rachael: Yeah. Sometimes we need that. And have we picked a date? No, but we will. It will happen, and I will not be sick when it comes. How about you? Do you want to...
Lauren: For the first time ever, I've planned enough where I do have something to promote.
Rachael: Amazing. Wow.
Lauren: Okay. So end of July, I will have taught my second mural painting workshop, which means the backdrops going to be different in here. This is so fun. Similar to how you can express yourself through clothes, you can express yourself through art on the walls.
Rachael: Yeah, your home.
Lauren: I had so much fun teaching my first mural painting workshop in June that I decided to host two more this summer.
Rachael: Hell yeah.
Lauren: I'm hosting one at the end of August, August 24th and 25th. Yeah, Saturday, Sunday. It's a two-day intensive mural painting workshop. It's limited to 10 people, because it's here in my studio, but over the course of two days, we basically from scratch paint... It'll be a 36-foot-long mural in here because it wraps around the whole wall.
Rachael: I can't wait to see it.
Lauren: And if you're interested in signing up for that, we'll put it in the show notes, or you can just go to homsweethom.com/classes and it'll be there. It might be sold out by the time this comes out, but if it's not, grab your spot.
Rachael: And if it is, you'll probably have a wait list form that they can fill out?
Lauren: If it is sold out, I'll have a wait list, because I don't have any more planned after that, but it's entirely possible that the second one goes well and I want to keep doing them. So that is what I'm teaching. I'm really excited about it. It's been nice to experiment with teaching in-person workshops again, because mural painting is one of those things. I've had an online class for four years now where I do walk people through everything from start to finish on how to get into murals and start painting them.
It's so tactile that it's fun to do in person. Oftentimes too, with an online class, you'd get the information, but then you have to go out and do the thing, especially if it's project based. And the workshop for June sold out so quickly that I was like, "Oh, okay. There's demand for this." So it's been nice to take my own advice from this podcast and experiment, try new things. I'm running a deal if it's still for sale, where I noticed a lot of people for the workshop came in pairs, so like husband and wife, mother, daughter.
Rachael: Cute.
Lauren: And so I'm running a deal where if you can find a friend to sign up with you, you get $75 off each. Amazing. So it's like fancy dinner is on me if you want to come to the workshop with a friend.
Rachael: I love that. Oh, that's fantastic. And what a great opportunity for people to learn from you in person, number one. Cool. But they also get to do the thing and have photos, right?
Lauren: Yeah. Kristle's here, we take photos of the event so you have some tangible proof that you painted a mural because no one's going to hire you, most likely, unless they see some proof that you can do it. It's like you want to get a haircut from someone who doesn't have any photos of hair they've cut.
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: It's the trust thing. The no trust. It's the trust.
Rachael: Totally.
Lauren: So, I'm really excited about that. Hopefully the other ones go well too.
Rachael: I'm excited for you.
Lauren: Thank you.
Rachael: I would promote my Play with Clay workshop, but that will have already passed, so I'm also really excited to teach in person again and talk about clay and making a weird thing.
Lauren: I wish I could come, but it's the day of my next mural. We're doing it on the same day.
Rachael: Whoa.
Lauren: Yeah. I love that. But there will be more, I'm sure.
Rachael: Totally. Really excited. Okay, cool. Well, I'm not going to ask you what you're excited about, because we are already way over time, and I'm going to assume [inaudible 01:04:47] the mural workshops.
Lauren: It is. I'm also really excited about this mocktail that I made for everybody.
Rachael: It is really good.
Lauren: I've still been into mocktails. Kristle and I celebrated our five-year work anniversary recently. And the restaurant we went to, She Wolf, had this great carrot, ginger lime mocktail, and so I wanted to recreate it. So I made a carrot ginger shrub, which is basically you grate a bunch of carrots and ginger and you soak it in a mixture of sugar and apple cider vinegar for a couple of days in the fridge. It infuses, and then you strain out the chunks and you've got this bright orange gingery liquid, and then you just mix it with a little bit of lime juice and seltzer, and it's this delicious, refreshing, pretty healthy bev.
Rachael: I love it. It tastes really good.
Lauren: Thank you.
Rachael: Yeah. I would like to request a passion fruit ginger cocktail mocktail.
Lauren: I'm going to make... I have some passion fruit juice in the fridge right now. I could make you a passion fruit spritz.
Rachael: There was... My favorite restaurant is Voyager, because you know I love oysters. Talked about that. They used to have a passion fruit mocktail, and I am the type of person who tastes something and I'm like, "Yum, yum. Good. I don't know what's in it." So I could not tell you how to recreate it, but I remember that it had passion fruit and ginger, and I'm sure if those two ingredients are in there, I'll like it.
Lauren: Yeah.
Rachael: So that's my official request to end the podcast. Maybe Lauren can share her mocktail recipe in the show notes.
Lauren: Entirely possible.
Rachael: If you want. Maybe it's a secret thing that you're...
Lauren: It's not a classic thing. Not at all.
Rachael: Okay. Thanks for listening. Thanks for watching. We love to gab. We'll see you. Talk to you next time.
Lauren: Bye.
Rachael: Bye.