This episode is all about money and feelings! There’s a saying that is constantly floating around online: “Charge your worth and add tax.” Lauren and Rachael discuss the limits of this phrase and how decoupling your self-worth from the perceived value of your products or services can be a healthier perspective when building a sustainable business. Additionally, they discuss how values like accessibility inform their goals to engage in an inclusive form of commerce, while still covering the costs of doing business and making a living. Hopefully, this conversation makes you feel seen and supported in navigating all of the complexities of working for yourself.
This episode is all about money and feelings! There’s a saying that is constantly floating around online: “Charge your worth and add tax.” Lauren and Rachael discuss the limits of this phrase and how decoupling your self-worth from the perceived value of your products or services can be a healthier perspective when building a sustainable business. Additionally, they discuss how values like accessibility inform their goals to engage in an inclusive form of commerce, while still covering the costs of doing business and making a living. Hopefully, this conversation makes you feel seen and supported in navigating all of the complexities of working for yourself.
Special shoutout to Morgan Harper Nichols!
The transcript for this episode can be found here!
Lauren: People call it the passion tax where you love what you do, so that's part of the payment, and it can be, but it shouldn't be the reason why you're underpaid.
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Lauren: Hello, and welcome to Chaotic Creatives, a show about embracing the chaos that comes with living a creative life.
Rachael: We are your host, two self-proclaimed chaotic creative gals. I am Rachael Renae. I am your internet hype gal and I'm here to encourage you to use play to live a confident and creative and fulfilling life.
Lauren: And I am Lauren Hom, better known as Hom Sweet Hom on the internet. I'm a designer, lettering artist, muralist and most recently chef. Hello.
Rachael: Hello. Welcome back.
Lauren: What do we got today?
Rachael: Today we are talking about feeling worth charging what you should for your offerings.
Lauren: Money and feelings. Money and feelings, friends.
Rachael: Money and feelings. Yes.
Lauren: We are continuing the conversation from the previous episode and adding, I guess, focusing on that one specific area because for creative people, especially for chaotic creatives, it can be really difficult to charge for your work, to feel good about charging for your work, to, let's say, know how to set your initial price, to know how to increase your rates eventually, depending on if you're selling a service or you're selling a product. It's a lot to think about and especially with all the noise online of... There's a hundred different ways to think about pricing. There's so many books out there, right? There's so many resources that try to tell you what to charge, but the thing that we've talked about that we think is important is how do you feel about it?
It's helpful to know what other people are charging, but ultimately it's up to you to figure out a rate that feels good, a realistic price, I think, that you can charge for what you're offering depending on your skill set, depending on your experience, and it really is an experiment as well. But the underlying thing is when we don't feel good about charging for our work, we tend to stay away from it.
Rachael: Undercharge and not feel confident in-
Lauren: Yeah. We undercharge as a way to combat those bad feelings, and that's not super helpful to anybody.
Rachael: No, absolutely not. As you were saying that, I was thinking about, for me, products feel easier to price because there is a general market range. When I was making greeting cards, it was between $4.50 and $6.50 basically. So if I wanted to charge $10 for a greeting card, sure, I could try, but most people are comfortable paying within that aforementioned range. Whereas if it were a product with a fine art piece or something, like we had a holiday sale at my ceramic studio and one of the owners was like, "Hey, if this is your first time..." Because it's cool that they did that, offering people who are just hobbyists and an opportunity to sell some of the extra stuff and maybe recoup some cost of a studio membership.
For me, it's not hard to price stuff because I just have done it before, have that experience, feeling confident in doing that. But for folks that had never sold before, they were like, "It depends on how attached you are to the object. Do you want these things to be out of your collection, out of your basement? Price them a little lower. Is this something that you put a ton of energy into and you love it so much and you would be okay with it not selling? Put $100 on it." It's a little bit emotional when it comes to more of fine art one-off pieces, but my problem comes in when I'm trying to charge for service-based work because the imposter syndrome comes in. Even though I have so much feedback from people telling me that I'm good at what I do and I have had successful courses and workshops, it still feels like every time I have a new offering, I'm pre-justifying why it costs what it does instead of just being like, "This is what it costs."
Then I brought this up with my therapist because I was like, "I'm having a hard time when it comes to pricing because I want things to be accessible. I want to be fair. I don't want to be taking advantage of people." She was like, "Listen, you're not. You have things online for free." I have free downloads. I offer a ton of free stuff on Instagram. I have lower price point items and then it's the higher stuff that I'm struggling with because I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I have to justify why it costs $300." I do sliding scale. She was like, "You have information that people want from you and they are willing. It's a reciprocal energy exchange. They're willing to pay. They want to pay you for this, and so you need to understand what you're offering is worth the price that you're charging."
So I'm really working on that and we were talking about this offline and that's where this came from because I struggle with that. I think it's because I'm so new into this sort of creative coaching consulting realm that I'm like, "Well, what creative person would want to learn from me?" Because I haven't been doing it for 10 years. So it's kind of imposter syndrome, a little bit of worthiness, a little bit of like, "Oh, I've never done this before, so I'm nervous." Does that make sense?
Lauren: 100%. I think everything that you just said people will be able to relate to because when you're starting out pricing any new offer, you don't have any information or tangible proof that like, "I am worth this." There's a lot that's gained and a lot that's lost when we now have so much social media content and internet content about, "Here's what I charge. Here's how you should charge." There's a hundred different ways to approach it. Whereas when you were talking, what came to mind was when I was starting out with freelancing, I didn't have that extra information. There wasn't Instagram yet. There wasn't a lot of resources out there. There were a couple blog posts maybe that people would reference, but I started freelancing by jumping on the gigs section of Craigslist, the creative gigs, and emailing people and they would offer me a price or I would just say a number. That felt comfortable to me at the time, and I was 19, 20 maybe.
So my first freelance projects were like $50 logos, like $75 wedding invitation illustrations, really nothing you could live off of, but I was just saying whatever number my fingers could type in an email. That's my most realistic pricing advice to everybody when it comes to services is no matter what experience level you have, you have to charge the number that the highest number that you can say with a straight face.
Rachael: Sure.
Lauren: The number you can choke out because usually what that means is it's slightly above your comfort level, but not so emotionally upsetting or it doesn't cause you to go into a weird spiral. It's like, "Okay. I think I can get this," or "I've gotten this before." Let's say I've gotten $100 an hour before. Let me try saying $120. The worst thing can say is no, and it's just opening up a conversation. It's not like they're going to shun me for life, and then you can slowly raise your rates from there. That's how I did it at least.
There's a lot of... What is that advice that floats around the internet sometimes? That's charge what you're worth and then add tax. Very shareable, very empowering. I'm going to sound like such an old fart saying this. Personally, I've never found that helpful because it's not practical, because your worth as a human being is not the same as your worth in the labor market or the retail market, whatever that might be. I think separating the two can help you get some healthy distance from the emotions that come with charging for your work because your worth... There's no number you could put on your worth as a person.
Rachael: Yeah, absolutely.
Lauren: But what you were saying about coming from the retail angle is interesting because as a freelancer, we're just guessing about hourly rates, right? We know what minimum wage is. That's maybe base level that we have. It's like, "Well, I shouldn't charge less than that." But with retail, you are right. There's only so much that the average consumer, which is who you're probably catering to when you're starting out, is willing to pay, which is why with food, I know that if I were to sell cookies or I were to do dinner parties, there's a ceiling to how much I can charge for that. Like our previous episode, it's up to me to decide how much energy I want to sink into that, knowing how much profit I can probably make from that. So it is highly emotional.
One thing that's been helpful for me as a seasoned freelancer but a novice chef is realizing that, "Oh, again, my worth in the labor market is different than my worth as a person." I'm in different labor markets now. As a fresh out of culinary school cook, I could probably make 15 to $20 an hour. That doesn't say anything about me. That's just what our society says they're willing to pay. We could talk a lot about the exploitative pay models of lots of businesses, and I know everyone's just squeezed. But as a designer who has 11 years of experience, I can charge $300 an hour. It's just different markets, different skill sets and different price points that clients or employers are willing to pay.
I was journaling about this a couple weeks ago and I was like, "Oh yeah, these are two very different hourly rates and they don't say anything about me as a person. It's really just my level of experience and also the market." I can't come into a kitchen saying, "Hey, I'm a designer with 11 years of experience. You should pay me $300 an hour." It just went fly.
Rachael: I think that's where I'm at is I feel so confidently about my day job and I can walk into any room and talk about my expertise because I've been doing it for 11 years, but when it comes to entering this new... It's not a new field. I've been in creative fields before, but it's a new perspective-
Lauren: You're trying to make a living from it.
Rachael: ...and feeling like I have something to offer folks in terms of their creative businesses when I am at the beginning of one of mine. Does that make sense?
Lauren: 100%. Yeah. You could probably write up 100-page document for someone on the ins and outs of running a stationary business, and that's just not interesting to you right now, and that's not where you want to spend your time. So I think the confidence that we have and the feelings we have around charging money for things has a lot to do with our experience and it's kind of acclimating to a chilly pool.
Rachael: Yeah, that's a really good-
Lauren: You've been in the pool, engineer pool for a long time.
Rachael: I have. Yeah. I think also thinking about it from the perspective of you talking about, "Okay. This is what my time is worth as a designer labor-wise," and also factoring in your payroll, your health insurance, your materials, things that you have to pay for, like file sharing services, stuff like that, I think that's something that I'm still navigating what those costs are to run my business so it feels harder to say, "Oh, okay. I am going to charge $300 for this workshop because I know that I'll be spending this much time working on it. I need to have these sort of hosting platforms. Teachable takes this much. Squarespace takes this much." I'm still tweaking that. Then once I have that baseline, hopefully I'll start to feel more confident. Then I think a lot of it just comes with experience and getting good feedback and being like, "Oh, I would've paid more for that," because you provided so much value.
Lauren: Yeah, absolutely. I think one thing that has helped me whenever I get in my head about pricing my offerings, whether it's a design client or it's an online course or a program that I'm running or even the dinner parties I was hosting last year, I try to remember as someone who's selling something, we all sell stuff and we all consume stuff. We're buyers. If you think about the way that you as a caring, empathetic, lovely human being-
Rachael: Thank you. Thank you.
Lauren: ...operate as a consumer, whether or not you make a purchase, whether it's a $5 item or a $500 item, it's not necessarily the number, it's the perceived value for the thing. In our flop episode, I'll bring this back, but I talked about how it's like when you're walking through the grocery store and you see it as a designer, it's like, "Oh, cute wine bottle, cute jam jar," whatever it might be, cute packaging. You pick up the jam jar and you're like, "This is adorable," and then you see it's $12. Maybe if I'm buying a gift, I'll spend the money, but for me, in my day-to-day life, I'm just not going to spend $12. The same way you said $10 for a greeting card is just like you're catering to a completely different experience or market.
When I put that jar back on the shelf, it's not like I'm giving a middle finger to that small business owner. It's also not like I am taking out my phone and sending an email to the business being like, "Why does your jam cost $12?" which is unfortunately that real-time feedback is what people do on social media.
Rachael: Totally. Because we're the faces of our brands. Yeah.
Lauren: When you say, "Hey, I have this new class," and then people go like, "Ooh, why is it so expensive?" that interaction is only facilitated by social media.
Rachael: Yeah. Yeah. I think I mentioned this when we were talking off before we recorded, but I shared my Chicago workshop and someone was like, "Oh, yeah, what are the details?" I linked them to the sales page and they were like, "Too rich for my blood. Good luck." That is valid and the value is what? That's such a good point because if someone were really interested in refining their style and wanted to hang out in person with me and absorb that information in the IRL setting, then it would be valuable and it was for the participants, and I totally understand that. If that's not where you're going to prioritize your limited funds, that's okay, but also you don't have to make me feel bad about it.
You gave that jam example in our flop episode, and I went to the grocery store this weekend and I was buying gift items and I was like, "Okay. I want to get some cozy little gift things," so I'm thinking tea, chocolate, get some flowers. I was like, "Oh, crackers would be a cute thing." I saw a local business and I know the people who printed the packaging and I was like, "Oh, hell yeah." It was $12 for a thing of crackers, and I was like, "Ah, I can't do that." I put it back and then I was like, "Good for them." I had that thought in my brain. Then later, I did pay $12 for a thing of Mexican hot chocolate, and then I got home and I was like, "Oh, I did." I just experienced what Lauren was talking about where it was like, "Good for them, if someone is willing to pay that."
Crackers are not as desirable for me as a fancy hot chocolate. So that was just how I weighted that and that's such a good point. Yeah, maybe a dress for yourself workshop is not as valuable as a flight to somewhere else, and that's okay, but yeah, we have to receive it. I need to practice though not prefacing my sales or my attempt at selling my offerings with like, "I know it's expensive. This is why, because this is just what it costs." I don't think that a car salesman is ever, "I know it's expensive, but let's get you in this car right now." They're like, "Oh, this is the best deal on this thing."
Or my friend just bought a chair from a furniture store that it rocks and it swivels and has a charger in it. She's about to give birth, and so she's like, "This is perfect for the nursery." She texted as soon as soon as she bought it and she was like, "I just got a deal. They were going out of business." Then I saw her yesterday and she was like, "They just have those signs. They're not actually going out of business. They just use that to create the sense of urgency and make you think that you're getting a deal."
Lauren: Wait, is that ethical? Can they do that?
Rachael: I don't know.
Lauren: Whoa.
Rachael: Maybe it's how they verbalize it or what language they use, like store closing. Yeah, it closes at 8:00 every day.
Lauren: There's a tiny little asterisk in the corner.
Rachael: Yeah. She was like, "I thought I was getting a deal." It's a great chair, worth what she paid. I sat in it and I was like, "Oh, you think you're going to nurse your child in this? I'm going to be in here napping with the cat." But it's interesting if you think about these corporations, they're like, "This is the best deal ever." They're like, "Actually, it's a 50% markup," but they don't tell you that. Meanwhile, there's us independent businesses being like, "Ooh, is $300 too much for this?" even though sometimes that's barely breaking even after you account for all your software and your time.
Lauren: To reference something we said in the previous episode, I think if you are more of an analytical person... I got eye on it, don't worry. We're trying not to gab too long. We're trying to be-
Rachael: We told ourselves that season two is going to be like 30 to 40-minute episodes and we haven't really done that, so we're trying this time, so more just caught me looking at the clock.
Lauren: It's okay, I got it.
Rachael: Great.
Lauren: I was going to say, wait, last episode-
Rachael: Sorry.
Lauren: No, it's okay. It was funny because when we saw our friend Andy recently and he has ADHD and he was talking and we just saw him doing that long winding thing and he was like, "I don't know why I brought that up." I was like, "It's okay. My podcast co-host is ADHD too. I like this. This is fine."
Rachael: Yeah. My favorite thing though is when I can tie it back, when I can I take us down a path, which last episode, I said we were going to do a scoreboard of your food analogies. My scoreboard has to be the amount of times that I take us on a side quest and do I make it back sometimes? Sometimes it's just a fun little story and sometimes eventually I can get us back on track.
Lauren: If not, we just turn around and go back to the main road.
Rachael: Yeah, it's an adventure. ADHD is an adventure.
Lauren: It's a cul-de-sac.
Rachael: A cul-de-sac.
Lauren: Some are cul-de-sacs.
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: Some are roundabouts.
Rachael: When you said that, here I go. I imagine riding... Did you ever do this on your bike riding a bike and then you skid?
Lauren: Absolutely not. I am way too scared to do that.
Rachael: Okay. My cousins lived on a cul-de-sac for a handful of years during my youth and I would go stay there in the summer. So yeah, I loved trying to skid around the cul-de-sac on my bike.
Lauren: I see. I am nervous on wheels. I ate shit on my Razor scooter so many times growing up and I don't do anything risky now on wheels-
Rachael: That's fair.
Lauren: ...or as a child. After the Razor scooter incidents, no.
Rachael: I love that. A Razor, in parentheses, scooter ruined Lauren's appetite for adventure.
Lauren: Yes.
Rachael: The Razor scooters were dangerous. I don't know why they're back, but the kids, the youths are riding them, but-
Lauren: Are Heelys going to come back too?
Rachael: I feel like I have seen Heelys on the children.
Lauren: Let's not do that.
Rachael: Yeah.
Lauren: Okay. Getting back to the main road. What I was going to say is if you are more of an analytical person trying to find something to grasp onto for what to charge, it does help to look at your expenses and say, "What is the minimum price I could charge for this that would help cover my expenses?" At the beginning, maybe you don't have a ton of expenses. It makes sense that as your expenses go up, your prices go up, but just knowing the minimum you need to charge to keep the lights on is helpful to just know your floor. It helps to give you at least one guardrail so you can operate from there. Then if a project comes along or someone makes you an offer that is lower than that, you can say no. It makes it easy to make decisions.
I think what is emotionally taxing about running a creative business is having to think about your pricing with every new project, every new product. As you get more experience, and it really will just take experience because everyone who's listening does something slightly different and is operating in a different market, you will refine your pricing strategy and I think depending on the kind of work you do too. Everyone wants to make a good living, I think, but some people, there are some projects where you might be willing to take less money for it for a number of reasons. Maybe it's like a topic that you're super excited about. Maybe you're really trying to help out a friend. There could be so many reasons and every project, it's helpful to have some guidelines in your mind, but you do have to make that decision with every project.
Rachael: Yeah. I had some really good advice when I was chatting with a potential mentor a few months ago and talking about how I wanted to get into speaking. I love speaking at my day job. I obviously educating and I think it would be great to get into the speaking circuit and be able to talk to various audiences about how letting your employees express themselves creatively, whether that's through clothes or just their ideas at work is beneficial to your company. I was just investigating what would be necessary to get speaking gigs outside of a creative conference, for example.
I was talking with this person and they were like, "Well, if you want to start building experience, obviously you have to start somewhere. You're not going to be paid 50K for a speaking gig right out of the bat, but maybe you could..." If the budget is only $200, can you also ask them for some non-monetary benefits? Can you say like, "Oh, can you have someone send me the recording?" or "Can you put me in touch with a couple of other people who book conferences you do?" Just so that you're still getting value out of your time, especially as you're growing." So I really appreciated that advice.
None of us are just going to make what we want to make right away. We have to earn that experience and refine our offerings and try to figure out how we want to show up and what our price points need to be. So I'm trying to think about that as I'm building up my offerings like, "Okay. I am happy to offer a discount to get people in the door." Maybe I ask them for testimonials like, "I'm happy to give you this discount if you'll give me a testimonial on this experience." So trying to think about maybe non-monetary ways to build my confidence and be able to help people out as well.
Lauren: Yeah, 100%, because I think like we talked about before, no one gets into any kind of creative line of work to maximize profit, to make a ton of money. That's not the driving force. It's good if you could make a lot of money.
Rachael: I mean, we all would love that, of course.
Lauren: But there's so many factors at play. When you were talking, it reminded me of something that my friend Morgan Harper-Nichols said. We were on a call, I don't know, a couple months ago and she was talking about navigating pricing work for client work, commercial client work and how a lot of times we all get those emails that are like, "We would love to collaborate with you," when it really means, "Can you do free work for us?" When you're starting out, it's easy to think like, "Oh, I should just do this to get it under my belt." But like we talked about before, I think having a floor is helpful. Then there are other benefits and there is more value than just the money, but it's up to you to decide is it worth it to you, right? Is this getting me closer to what I want in some area?
What Morgan said was she's been asking herself the question when she gets inquiries. Now, when people ask things of her, she doesn't necessarily say it to their face, but she plays it in her mind, she's like, "What's in it for me?" I was like, "You go, girl." That is such a great way to think about it. That should be the first question you ask when someone has a business inquiry for you.
Rachael: Yeah. When they're approaching you.
Lauren: Yes. When they are approaching you. I think that's actually a really helpful or important caveat is are you reaching out or are they reaching out to you? I've always likened it to the difference between a store offering a free sample, like a bakery offering a free sample of a muffin. There's a little cut up muffin on the counter. That feels fine for the bakery owner because you are doing it. You have consented to giving this free muffin versus someone coming into your bakery saying, "Hey, can I try that muffin?" You're just like, "Kick rocks."
Rachael: "Get out of here." Yeah.
Lauren: Sure, you don't get what you don't ask for, but I think what is annoying to a lot of creative business owners is, especially with online interactions, the continuous asking for discounts, the continuous like, "Why is it so expensive?" I understand where you're coming from where there's that knee-jerk reaction to just defend why what you are selling costs what it costs. There's some education around some things because something like a personal style class or a passion project class or a mural painting class on my end, the general public, the average person doesn't know what that should cost. Whereas if you encounter a gallon of milk or jam, we have a gauge of what that costs. Or even a hair salon usually lists their prices. With services, we don't always list the price because it's so variable based on what they're asking for.
Rachael: Absolutely. Yeah.
Lauren: So there is some education on our end to be like, "Hey, this is what I'm offering. This is what it costs. This is the value I think you're going to get." But at the end of the day, there are some people that you don't need to waste your breath convincing them of every last drop of value they're going to get because they won't be convinced. They're not even bought in a little bit from the get-go. It's not a good use of your creative energy or time to try to... It's like convincing someone to date you.
Rachael: Yeah. I also think, and maybe this is a hot take, but some of the things that we offer, you don't need to take my personal style course to survive.
Lauren: Yes.
Rachael: This is an extra thing.
Lauren: A nice-to-have.
Rachael: I do think that a lot of what I talk about in all of my work is related to mental health and mindfulness and reflecting and creating, taking action in your own life to create the life that you want, but it is not therapy. So prioritize therapy, prioritize your health. You have to buy your groceries first. You have to pay your rent before you're buying these things that we offer as extras. I understand that.
Lauren: Yeah. It really depends on your values and your business model and your expenses and needs. You don't have to offer discounts. You don't have to offer scholarships or sliding scale or... It depends if accessibility is important to you, which it is, but you as the business owner get to decide how accessible... I feel like there's different levers to pull. Are you going to offer maximum accessibility at your expense of not being able to make as much money from your course as you wanted to? For example, as someone who does sliding scale, a lot of times, and I do a no-questions-asked sliding scale because I don't want the admin of, "I don't need you to prove to me. It's fine." But a lot of times people will go for the sliding scale. Who knows if they need it or not? That's okay. I do make a little less money on my courses now that I do sliding scale, but it's okay.
I think similar to tailoring your creative offerings, like we said in our last episode, tweaking them like iterating, when it comes to pricing your services, you can tweak them as well and you can have some sliding scale. Maybe you have a couple windfall years and you're like, "I'm so well-resourced now that I'm going to offer more scholarship spots." But if money is tighter, you do have to prioritize your own the health of your business too, and that matters too. I think accessibility matters, but also you have to trust your own internal compass of, "I don't just want to give this away to everybody."
It also means more admin for you the bigger your class is or just the more bigger customer base that you have. So I think that accessibility is a good thing and it's good to think about how you integrate that. But when you start to feel that resentment of like, "I actually can't give you more than this much of a discount," or "I actually can't offer a free spot," that's okay too. The same way that with a client project, if they're like, "Hey, we're a nonprofit. We only have 500 bucks," and let's say you would've typically charged 1,000. It's up to you to decide do you want to do it for the cause and that price. You're allowed to say no, that's okay too.
One piece of advice I got early on when it comes to doing work for nonprofits is a lot of times nonprofits will ask creative people to do free design or illustration. If you're really passionate about it, sure, I think donating our time versus our money can be a great way to stay connected to the cause. But if you're not super passionate about it, you shouldn't bully yourself into or guilt yourself into being like, "Well, I should do it for charity." The person emailing you is most likely on payroll.
Rachael: They get a salary.
Lauren: Yeah. So people get paid to produce work. I think a lot of the internal turmoil that I felt around pricing too comes from a political awakening as well of a deepened sense of class consciousness and financial accessibility mattering and wanting to be inclusive. Those things do matter. But then when you start feeling taken advantage of, then you got to figure out where you net out because you don't want to a martyr either in the sense of, "Okay. The best thing I can do is give all my stuff away for free. So I think I'm a good person." That doesn't make you a good person. I actually think that if you are pro-labor, you should charge a sufficient amount for your work so you aren't stressed about money. I think everybody wants to be fairly compensated for the work they do. I feel good about that.
Rachael: I think that's really fair. I mean, obviously, this is something I'm struggling with and that's why we're talking about it. I want what I'm sharing to be accessible to everyone, and I don't want that resentment when people push back on the pricing. Maybe it's the wrong target market. Maybe I need to work on my own worth related to charging for my offering and starting to feel more comfortable doing that. I think it's a combination of all those things.
Lauren: It's a lot of stuff. I mean, how we feel about the price we're charging and the money we're making is, I think, the undercurrent for a lot of what we're doing and a feeling of worthiness. At the same time, similar to what we were talking about in the last episode, tweaking your offer, it might be offering payment plans or offering... You do offer different versions of the message that you share, which is great. I think it's like you said, being okay with not everyone is going to go for every offer and I have all this other free stuff.
What you said earlier is an important caveat of it depends on what you're offering. Graphic design for the most part isn't going to save the world. Personal style is not a necessity to learn about that, but these are things like... We buy things that aren't essential all the time, and there are things that people want because art and color and beauty matter to people, but I see more educators in the, let's say, financial literacy space offering sliding scale or no one turned away for lack of funds classes because that information is much more essential to someone's wellbeing. So I think it really depends on our ever-changing needs and values, but ultimately the undercurrent should be like, "I am worthy of making a living doing the thing that I love to do. I at least deserve to try." Like you said, it's impossible to know what the factors are, that maybe you're reaching the wrong market. Maybe it's the time of the year. Who knows?
Rachael: Sure. I think another thing that I'm thinking about is I get defensive and feel like I need to justify the pricing because it's obviously a soft spot for me, right? It could be that someone is just asking because like you said, you don't know if you don't ask. Maybe they haven't been following me for that long or maybe they haven't delved into the world of what I offer, so maybe they didn't even know that I have a free newsletter or a YouTube or this podcast exists. So instead of being a brat and be like, "I'm not in charge of your money," which of course, I would never say that, but it's just this is me venting frustration because I have gotten a lot of pushback when I've shared the style course, which is $111. I run it on sale frequently for 88, and people ask for payment plans and I'm just like, "Oh, okay. I'll do payment plans for anything 150 or over basically."
Lauren: Like a guide.
Rachael: Yeah. Those are the guardrails that I've set for myself. Yeah, I think it's just like it's me feeling like I'm practicing becoming worthy of charging money, and so then when people push back, I'm like-
Lauren: "No big deal." Yeah.
Rachael: Yeah, I'm working on it.
Lauren: Yeah. It's also just again, a product of us as small business owners being the customer service for your business too, where you're receiving those messages where there's plenty of businesses that sell things where the CEO is not feeling those.
Rachael: That's true.
Lauren: ...angry... Not even angry customer responses, but just it's very personal. The same way that the work that you do is personal and it's great in a lot of ways, and this is just one of the ways that it's not so great because we have a tendency to turn inwards and blame ourselves or... I was going to say before that there's so many factors as to why a project might not have gone through for a certain price or you didn't make the sale.
What I want all the listeners to take away from this is don't think you are bad. That's the least helpful thing that you can do because if you start thinking that you're bad or it must be somehow your fault, or maybe you're just not that good at making money, or maybe you're just not that good at what you do because people aren't paying for it, so clearly this is trash, you want to be your own hype gal basically and keep yourself in a positive enough mindset to keep doing your work because it's not helpful if you internalize the message that like, "I can't charge money for my work," which is the message that I think in general creatives receive from the world where it's like... People call it the passion tax where you love what you do, so that's part of the payment. It can be, but it shouldn't be the reason why you're underpaid. It's not a reason why you preemptively should undercharge.
I've talked before about I feel more comfortable charging companies larger prices than people, and not everyone feels that way. It really depends, but it's like what you were saying about speaking. Speaking at a community college versus speaking at a corporate event. You're going to be able to command different prices for those, and it's up to you to figure out how much of those you want to do, or if work slow, maybe you take the lower paying gigs for the time being. One thing that's out of our control too when it comes to pricing is tastes change. Markets change.
My friend was talking about how they are getting a lot less views on their content now, and they do a lot of influencer stuff and brand partnerships. They have sponsors. If your views go down, you can't charge as much a lot of times. Anyone who is on Instagram now or any social media knows that we're not in charge of the algorithm and all the things that worked to grow your audience a couple of years ago might not work now. So do not beat yourself up for those changes, but it can have a real impact on the amount you could charge for a sponsorship.
Same with client work people. I've been listening to a lot of media around tech layoffs and corporate layoffs and just to get some murmurs about, "Okay, if I work for..." Tech companies have huge budgets for creative work and those projects have come through over the years, but if they're cutting back on labor costs, they're probably not going to be spending a lot on design stuff. None of us can predict the future, but I like to just keep a finger on the pulse of like, "Okay. Maybe I ramp up teaching. Maybe I do this." This is going to sound... This is such an awful note to end on. Am I going to say it?
Rachael: I have a nice thing to add on.
Lauren: Okay. Great. Because I was going to say, I was talking with a friend on the phone the other day, and I am less certain, maybe of this shit year I've had, that just freelancing alone is enough to have a sustainable creative business. I think you do have to have multiple sources of income. They don't all have to be cash cows, but I think having a couple different ways that you've monetized around this thing you love to do can be helpful in weathering some of those curveballs that life might throw you, whether maybe the industry you niched down to focus on goes under. Maybe you are going through a depressive season and you don't want to teach because you just don't want to be front of people.
Rachael: You don't have the energy for it.
Lauren: Yeah. It just helps to give you options and to still pay the bills if you have a couple different ways that you can make money that you don't mind doing.
Rachael: I think the positive note that I was going to share is that I think oftentimes, especially when it's poking at a soft spot or a thing that you're sensitive about, it can feel like people are coming after you. Like you said, it's not you, it's the value of your labor. But it's helpful, and I've just been thinking about this as we're talking, I follow plenty of folks that I've paid for work. I've bought their workshops, but I haven't paid for their $5,000 coaching, or I've bought their PDF downloads, but I haven't purchased their course. I don't think any less of those people because they're charging that amount for what they're offering. It's just that doesn't fit into what I'm looking to improve at this time in my life or learn about or what I can afford right now.
Lauren: Totally.
Rachael: That doesn't mean anything about them. I'm like, "Well, I'll get this option." I need to remember that my audience likely, it has that same feeling about me. Maybe they're like, "Oh, I don't want to prioritize play at this time in my life," or maybe just the playlists are enough to get them... They're taking initiative on their own or the free challenges that I do is enough to excite them and they don't want to pay for anything more, and that's okay. That's what that platform is for. I just hope that they think about me in the same way that I'm thinking about these other folks that I'm like, "Oh, yeah. I've never purchased one of their courses, but I love that they're making them and charging for them." So, I don't know.
I think it's a mindset shift thing for me, and I'm working on feeling more worthy. I appreciate everyone listening understanding that I not trying to be classist or come from a privileged standpoint to be like, "Oh, you can't afford this." That's not where I'm coming from. I'm just trying to understand how I can support myself and also offer things to people at various levels because accessibility is important, like you said. I think the fact that we want to be conscious of classism and this system of capitalism that we live in is a good thing, and then also it can be a bummer when we're not making money from the things that we're producing.
Lauren: Yeah, it's good to be aware of things and to move consciously. It's better to do it with your eyes open than your eyes closed, but it's tough running a business in a capitalist economy while you do have to prioritize at least making enough profit to pay yourself to live. Great if there's extra left over to hire help or outsource some work or give other people some jobs, but you do have to prioritize... Actually, one of my culinary school teachers said this. She was talking about personal chefing and catering, and she was like, "If you're not making a profit, it's not a business. It's a hobby, and that's okay."
Rachael: Yeah. Like you said to me when we were at dinner, you were like, "If you're not making money, the IRS doesn't consider you a business."
Lauren: At a certain point, you have a couple years to be profitable and then you can't write stuff off anymore because that would be a huge loophole.
Rachael: Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren: So I think one of the takeaways from this episode, which we talked about when we were brainstorming this, was there's a difference between doing commerce and being a capitalist. There's so much space in between those things. You're allowed to sell your labor. Most of us have to sell our labor to live. You're not being exploitative by charging for your work. It's the same way you have creative control over your work. You also have, as a creative entrepreneur, control over your pricing and the different income streams you have. It's going to take a little tinkering to figure out what works for you.
If accessibility is the most important thing to you, then you prioritize that and maybe you don't make as much money. If you're going through a season where it's like, "I got to make bank. I have all these expenses coming up," or "I need to help a family member with health bills, medical bills," maybe you just ramp up like, "Okay. This is my money-making era." When you feel the conviction about, "This is why I'm doing this. This is what's important to me," yeah, it's...
For anyone who's creative out there who's trying to sell their work, try charging money for your work. It doesn't make you bad. It doesn't say anything about you as a person. As Rachael has experienced and said, if you get pushback, it's not personal. In my industry, it's very common to teach younger creatives to see negotiation. We fear negotiation with a client project because we see it as combative like, "Ooh, the client's trying to not pay us," when the more realistic scenario is the person on the other side of the email is just a human being who works for a corporation who wants to give you some of the corporation's money to do your art, and it's not their money. Unless you're working with a small business maybe it is their money.
Each of those situations have to be handled with different care, but it's just a conversation. It's just a conversation, and you do not need to beg or convince someone to work with you at a certain point. It's good to be like, "This is what I'm offering. These are the benefits." But if someone says no, it's just not the right fit right now. It has nothing to do with your worth as a person.
Rachael: Mm-hmm. Yeah. This was a nice little session for me to hear.
Lauren: Wow. Yeah. Hopefully, this was a session for anyone else who needs a little pep talk who's been going through any mental, emotional brain garbage when it comes to charging money for your work. You'll hear a lot of opinions online too that are definitive. Nothing's definitive.
Rachael: Yep, we live in the gray area.
Lauren: Yeah. You know what, one of the most helpful things you can do is find a either small group or even just one person of creative pals, people who are trying to achieve the same things you're trying to achieve and have people to commiserate with, have people to swap info with instead of... I'm speaking to myself too. It's easy to just save a bunch of Instagram posts from strangers, but what will actually help you get clarity is talking with people who are running alongside you, who are on the path with you-
Rachael: Absolutely.
Lauren: ...and getting real world... Even just sitting across from each other, just having someone listen to. This is what I'm feeling, and I know it's kind of like a hyper-specific or even privileged problem to have, but this is what's going through my brain. I think you need people you can do that with.
Rachael: I think you need pals to remind you that, hey, you're not a bad person because you want to get paid for your work.
Lauren: Yeah, absolutely. Think about you would want your best friend to negotiate her salary, right? You want your friend to come back from the holiday market being like, "I sold out. It was amazing."
Rachael: Absolutely.
Lauren: Try to treat yourself when it comes to being with a friend.
Rachael: Be your own hype gal, and be other people's hype gal as well, right? Well, thanks for listening.
Lauren: Thanks for joining us.
Rachael: Bye.
Lauren: Bye.