In this discussion, Rachael and Lauren explore the how their upbringings, and communities of origin have influenced the trajectories of their creative lives and careers.
In this discussion, Rachael and Lauren explore the how their upbringings, and communities of origin have influenced the trajectories of their creative lives and careers.
Episode Mentions:
Sponsors:
The transcript for this episode can be found here!
Lauren: Hey, Lauren here, want to add muralists to your ever-growing list of creative titles? Well, then you're in luck, because this episode is brought to you by Mural Painting for Designers, my online class that teaches you how to plan, paint and price murals of your very own. Gain the confidence to pick up a paintbrush. Start adding murals to your portfolio now instead of someday, and start painting the large-scale artwork that you've always dreamed of doing. Enrollment is open until May 21st, so head to homsweethom.com/classes, or click on the link in the episode description to learn more. Hey, now back to the show.
********
Rachael:
Hello. Welcome back to Chaotic Creatives, a show about embracing the chaos that comes from living a creative life.
Lauren: We are your hosts, two self-proclaimed chaotic creative girls. I'm Lauren Hom. Some of you know me better as Hom Sweet Hom on the internet. I am a lettering artist, muralist, and most recently, chef.
Rachael: And I'm Rachael Renae, also known as Rachael Renae on the internet. And I'm an artist, creativity coach, and your internet hype girl.
Lauren: Oh, yeah. Welcome. Thanks for joining us.
Rachael: Thanks for joining us. Welcome to episode two.
Lauren: And today we are going to be talking about-
Rachael: We are going to-
Lauren: Cut it. Cut it. End it. I'm kidding.
Rachael: And that's it. And thank you for listening.
Lauren: This is done now. The podcast is over.
Rachael: Yeah, that was actually our final episode. Cut it.
Lauren: We're going to be talking about... Our conversation today is inspired by a conversation we had while hanging out recently.
Rachael: Aren't they all?
Lauren: Yeah, basically. The reason we even have this podcast is like, "Hey, we have great four-hour long conversations when we hang out. What if we recorded some of it?"
Rachael: Except we never actually just have the conversation. We still hang out and have the conversation, and then we're like, "We should talk about that."
Lauren: We do it again. Yeah. We refine it.
Rachael: Which is good because we refine it. Yeah.
Lauren: Yes. But we were talking about how our family and communities of origin affect our creative journeys, and how we feel about creativity, making money, just everything lumped into our creative journey, because we thought it was a nice introspective topic that can help all of you who are listening or watching think about the same things in your own lives. Because inevitably, what I said before we started recording, unless you've emancipated yourself from your family, all of us are impacted by the group of people we were raised by and the values we were raised with. And we all come with pre-downloaded preconceived notions about creativity, and what it means to pursue a path as an artist.
Rachael: And I think that we're human. We're all seeking validation, as much as we work on validating ourselves, and that's something that I absolutely share and help people with. There's still always going to be that desire to seek approval from people who love us. And it's something that I've been talking about in therapy, is that I find myself holding myself back, or rather my therapist gets me to admit that I'm holding myself back, because I'm anticipating what my parents' reaction will be to the thing that I'm working on, and then subconsciously holding myself back.
And I feel like she got annoyed with me. I don't know if that's actually true, but she was like, "You can't always be seeking their approval." And I was like, "I'm not trying to." I'm not actively being like, "Oh, I hope my parents are proud of me." I know that they are, and I know that no matter what I do, they will love and support me within reason, like no crime, probably big crime, violent crime.
Lauren: No bad crime.
Rachael: No bad crime. And so, it's just something that I've been thinking about a lot lately. And I shared that with you as we were gabbing this weekend, co-working, which did the computers come out once? Absolutely not.
Lauren: No.
Rachael: But that's okay because we had a great time.
Lauren: We did have a great time. You and I have talked over the years, because we've been friends for so long about, it's interesting how our desire for parental approval has manifested in completely opposite ways.
Rachael: Yeah. It's really interesting, because I feel like, like I said, I am anticipating what the reaction's going to be, and that it's not allowing me to completely chase my creative dreams, or it wasn't in the past until I became aware of it. And now I'm like, "Okay, first make sure you're happy, and then worry about other people's opinions of you." And that seems so obvious now, but when it's subconscious and you're not paying attention to that, it's hard. It's hard to recognize. And I feel like yours is the opposite.
Lauren: For those of you who've been following along with my career path, you've probably heard me talk about my dad before, and my dad is my number one fan. It is the opposite issue that a lot of creative people struggle with, where my dad is so tuned into everything that I do, and he's like the overzealous parent at soccer games growing up, who's just like, "Yeah, that's my kid."
Rachael: Did he ever coach from the sidelines? Because there were definitely some kids-
Lauren: Yeah, obviously.
Rachael: I feel like there was this one girl on my basketball team in high school that her parents would be a couple people down from the coach, and she would be looking her parents for what to do, what plays to play. And it pissed the coach off so much, but she always listened to her parents first.
Lauren: Oh, my gosh. Oh, so he wasn't coaching necessarily, but he was just a really invested fan. I do remember specifically, one time, I don't know if it was me or someone else, there was some kind of play. I played softball growing up. Something happened where the ref-
Rachael: Sorry, I just didn't know that.
Lauren: Really?
Rachael: Or maybe I can't picture that. Mostly because of the hat. Did you have to wear a hat?
Lauren: Yeah.
Rachael: I can picture you in a softball jersey.
Lauren: We had visors.
Rachael: Oh, that's worse, in my opinion.
Lauren: But the ref made a call or the umpire made a call and my dad didn't like it. And he goes, "What the hell?" And the umpire looks in my dad's direction, but doesn't realize it was my dad, thinks it was the coach and throws my coach out of the game because he cursed in front of kids.
Rachael: Oh, my God. And then, I imagine your dad putting on the hat and stepping in because your coach had to get booted. And he's like, "That's right. That was my intention all along."
Lauren: I actually can't remember. I would like to think that my dad was like, "Sorry, it was me," and recused himself from the game. But my dad has been so invested in my success, seeing me do well, and it's been nice to have an encouraging parent who's just cheering you on. The flip side of that though is I feel like I can't let him down. And I've told the story before, but he once was like, "I'm so proud of you. Everything you touch turns to gold. I have no doubt that you'll be fine." And that was harrowing for me. I know he didn't mean it that way, but I was like, "Not everything I touch turns to gold. I don't have 100% success rate."
And I don't think that's good for creativity to put that pressure on yourself to have 100% success rate because it's so subjective, anyways. And so, I've had to, like what you said about it's been a driving force for me where it's been like, "I'm going to work harder and make my parents proud." But it's been to a detriment sometimes, where I'm just like, "Is that ambition intrinsically mine or is it to make my parents proud of me to make it worth it?"
Rachael: And then it's in cases, I would imagine in cases like you going to culinary school where you really had to convince yourself that it was okay that you were putting your career on pause to do that, and you still worked. But did you have any thoughts around that with your... Did you have to do any convincing to your dad or was he like, "Culinary school is gold too"?
Lauren: He's been great, because anytime I've brought a concern to him about, "Hey, I need you to chill out," or he's been totally agreeable. And so, that's been lovely and reaffirming that he loves me and wants what's best for me and will listen to me. Originally, when I told my dad I wanted to go to culinary school, he was supportive. And about a week later, he called me and he was like, "Hey, what if you saved the $30,000 and just cooked at home every day?"
Rachael: And you're like, "I do that, and I don't want that to-"
Lauren: I would like to think it was less about the career pause and more about the practicality of-
Rachael: Spending money.
Lauren: Spending money. And I'm just going to pay for it myself. So, I don't know. I think he was just trying to be a dad and be like, "Have you considered this?" And I was like, "Yes, of course. I've considered that. I'm just not going to do it, so I am just going to save up and spend the money." But I think that having such a strong support system, but also slightly overbearing and overinvested, it's been good in a lot of ways, but also put a lot of extra pressure on me that took me years to realize that that pressure that I was putting on myself to achieve and strive for more wasn't necessarily mine. And it's been a journey.
Rachael: Well, and it's interesting too because some of it is cultural. You saying the $30,000, just in my head I'm like, "So many people buy $30,000 cars without needing to." Imagine if someone's parents were like, "Instead of spending that $30,000 on a new car, what if you just drove your car until you couldn't anymore?" But I feel like in American culture, it's all about the new car, the next big thing, and so we continue to put ourselves in debt. You don't have a car, and my car's paid off and I'm going to drive it until it dies. So, this isn't a good example.
But I just feel like that's something that so many people accept as just like, "That's just how much it costs." But when it's something that's out of the norm like, "I'm going to go back to school in my 30s." They're like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa." And I'm not saying that your dad said that, but I'm just trying to find parallels and comparison. So, a cultural thing, and also where you grew up, because you grew up in California, there are probably other creatives out there. I grew up in the Midwest in a really small town, and I didn't-
Lauren: Regionality makes a huge difference.
Rachael: And I think that's something that I have always been aware of, is I always felt like an outsider. I always wore weird clothes in school, but I still got good grades. I still played sports. I was the cheerleading captain, and I was the prom queen in my tiny, tiny town. So, I always had this duality that I was fighting, and that's why I love Dennis Rodman so much. I have to have talked about Dennis Rodman on the podcast, right? I'll just say it again.
Lauren: Do it.
Rachael: So, I love Dennis Rodman's story, and I'll talk about it whenever I can because in the late '80s, early '90s, the '89, '90 team, Detroit Bad Boys, here we go. I literally cried about Dennis Rodman in therapy when I learned this. So, he was in his 20s and he hit a growth spurt later, and he was literally working at the airport and just played basketball every day. And someone spotted him and recruited him, and he went to college for a year and then got recruited by the NBA. I don't know if that's the accurate timeline, but it's about that.
He didn't go straight to college from high school, and he was recruited because someone saw him playing basketball. And then he played, his first NBA team was the Detroit Pistons, and they were called the Bad Boys then because Detroit was quote, unquote, "rough Detroit," and they got into a lot of fights. There were a lot of physical hockey-like fights at these games because Rick Mahorn was just a badass and was just like, "You can't fuck with me."
Lauren: But you're not allowed to fight in basketball, right?
Rachael: You were then. I literally have goosebumps telling you this story right now. It's so good. So, I would highly recommend the ESPN 30 for 30 Detroit Bad Boys because it's so good, and it tells the story of this team. But then, if you follow Dennis Rodman specifically, so he was pretty... Oh, my God.
Lauren: Go.
Rachael: Isaiah Thomas was the captain of the team, and he was really soft-spoken and humble anytime he was interviewed, and Dennis Rodman was just like a teenager. He just didn't give a shit that he was becoming famous and was in the NBA, and he didn't answer questions in the quote, unquote, "right way." So, they were, he accidentally perpetuated this idea of them being bad boys and not giving a shit, but they were all good basketball players. And so, then eventually he got traded or recruited or whatever to the Bulls. And so, then when he joined the Bulls team, that was the three years where the Bulls won the national championship. This is taking away too long. Side Quest.
Lauren: All good.
Rachael: And that's when Michael Jordan became the Michael Jordan that we grew up with. They won three years in a row. They were undefeated, but Michael Jordan wouldn't have gotten as good if he didn't have to play the Detroit Bad Boys because they were so tough and good. Again, I have goosebumps again. I'm going to start crying talking about this team, that they pushed him to be better, and Dennis Rodman joined that team. And then by that time, I definitely didn't tell this story on the podcast because you guys probably wouldn't have let me. So, then Dennis Rodman was familiar with being a basketball star, and the Bulls won, and so they were championship winners. And then that's when he started to really become the freak that we all associate with Dennis Rodman. And maybe he was always this freak. I would anticipate that he, or I would expect that he was always this freak.
But in the Bulls documentary series, they talk about how their coach, Phil Jackson, of the winning Bulls coach, Dennis Rodman would be out partying or whatever, and they had practice and he just wouldn't show up. And instead of being like, "You're off the team or you're benched," or whatever. Phil Jackson would be like, "He needs to be that Dennis Rodman in order for him to show up as his best defensive player on the team." And so, he let him be his freak self. Whereas I feel like so many jock type coaches would be like-
Lauren: Fall in line.
Rachael: "You need to conform. Fall in line, do your job. This is your job." And he understood and saw that in Dennis Rodman that he was a freak and he needed to be a freak, but he's also a really, really good basketball player. And so, there's that duality of I call myself a freak. I say freak in an endearing way, an outcast, someone that doesn't necessarily fit into the norm of what's expected for that role. And he had Phil Jackson, and he never stopped being himself and leaned into it and whatever, did all the weird shit, and was still an incredible basketball player. And so, that's why I love Dennis Rodman's story because he never wasn't a freak. And also, he was a jock. And so, I saw myself in Dennis Rodman, because I was like, "I'm a freak and a jock too."
Lauren: And he was a great... So, what you're saying is he was a great basketball player because he was a freak, not just spite being a freak?
Rachael: Yeah, and allowed to be himself. And that improved his ability to show up authentically on the court because he was allowed to be his authentic self outside, and was seen as that authentic self by his coach, his boss, basically. So, all of that is saying that I did all the things that I thought I was supposed to do. No one ever explicitly told me, "You should play basketball. You need to get good grades, you need to do this." But that's what societal expectations are, especially like you said, regional expectations. Everyone where I grew up, you were lucky to have a job. There were people that were very, very poor where I grew up, and you were just grateful for what you had.
And so, I was raised with this mentality, and not just by my parents, but by my community that I shouldn't push the boundaries. I shouldn't try to expect something different than what everyone else does, because why would you do that? You do what's expected of you. You get the job, maybe you go to college, you get married, you have kids, and that's it. And you'd be happy with that, because you should be grateful. And I always, always just felt constrained and agitated by these expectations, again, that no one ever explicitly said, but I internalized.
Lauren: And kids are perceptive, and you don't need to have it explicitly said to you to start to pay attention to the norms of the adults around you. And I think, after having grown up on the West Coast, started my career on the East Coast and then lived in the Midwest for eight years, there's definitely a simplicity and a humility, and a plaything consistency and security on a pedestal here in the Midwest that is lovely and different than what I grew up from. And I feel like it gave me a more well-rounded take of what different creative people are doing in different pockets of the US. And I can totally see how it works For a lot of people. It is the... Maybe there are norms and default modes for a reason, because it works for a large number of people, but for those of us who feel constrained by those norms or we try them on, they don't quite feel right, then that's where creativity comes in. We come up with another path.
Rachael: And I think how I'm approaching my creative life now, what I dream about isn't, "Drive, drive, drive." It's, "I want a slow life. I want time to just stick around with my creative ideas." And I think that the reason that I'm drawn so much to France, Europe in general is because they have that slower pace of life, at least from what I've seen and read about. And I think it boils back down to capitalism, because our American culture is just, we are all in this capitalist society and the drive to make more money, and have more stuff, and convenience, and do this because it will propel your career. In America that doesn't seem to be the same mindset.
The stereotypical French mindset is like, "Yeah, I'll start my day when I start my day, do my job, and then I go home. I don't think about my job. I don't bring my job home." And I think that separation of job and life is really beautiful, but that can't happen without our basic needs being met. And so, we don't have that in the United States. And I feel like that is also part of what maybe the Midwest almost scarcity mindset, because in California you don't necessarily have snow, and you didn't have to... My grandparents canned food all summer so that they had food in the basement for winter.
Lauren: There's more of a survival list, like, "We got to buckle down and get through the hard times," that is imprinted in the memory of Midwesterners. I feel that.
Rachael: Yeah, absolutely. And that's not to say that people weren't canning food and saving it in other parts of the world, but the pictures of the snow banks that are taller than your house. You might not have been able to leave your house where I grew up a hundred years ago before the effects of climate change were made aware to us.
Lauren: Totally. And even just, again, the people who raised you, the people you spent time around when you were younger. I think about the families I grew up around in California, for example. My family is unique in the sense that yes, I grew up in Southern California, which is beach culture, surf culture there. My family though is they like to be indoors. They don't leave their bubble. My dad was born, went to college and started a family in the same, I want to say 30, 40 mile radius. And that's really interesting to me. We vacationed, we did the same vacation every year. We just drove up the coast, up and down the coast of California, and we were very localized in this one little spot. And I think it, I don't know, instilled in me a desire to go explore, because I hadn't seen much else.
And so many people would love to live in Southern California. It is lovely, but I think anything becomes familiar after a while, and I just wanted to see what else was out there. Whereas my younger brother had a much different reaction, where he was like, "This place is great," and is going to start a family there. And so, I think everyone's just cut from a slightly different cloth. And I have always just prioritized, from a young age even, I've just been weird and curious.
Rachael: I was just going to say, it's a curiosity, because with as little exposure to creative people, there were creative people, but there's a lot of folk art type stuff in the UP. People making wooden jewelry or whatever. What you would expect if you go to the UP, in a tourist shop?
Lauren: I don't even know what to expect because I've never been. Like Mackinac Island?
Rachael: Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren: Fudge.
Rachael: Right. It's different. It's just like... Anyway.
Lauren: Like lake art?
Rachael: Oh, yeah, lake art, beach-
Lauren: Because we grew up with a lot of beach-
Rachael: Driftwood.
Lauren: Beach art, sea glass.
Rachael: Yep. Yep, there's a lot of that. But then there's also birchbark notebooks and pens that look like a stick. People making those types of art, and that's great if that inspires them, but that was not the type of art-
Lauren: Sorry, Rachael and I just made eye contact, and now I'm laughing. I love the idea of pens that look like sticks.
Rachael: I had a lot of them. It's truly, they would take a stick, hollow it out and put a lead in it.
Lauren: There's going to be one person who's really mad at me for laughing because they make pens that look like sticks.
Rachael: And our whole message-
Lauren: I'm so sorry.
Rachael: Is that if it lights you up, that's all that matters. I'm so used to seeing it that I didn't think about it.
Lauren: In another life, I was talking with someone the other day about what were the realistic alternative paths your life could have taken. There is a reality in which I never left California, and I have a small shop by the sea, and I sell driftwood and sea glass artwork. I'm laughing because of that. I'm not trying to poo-poo that. That is a very realistic, and I will say, in demand thing. So, cool.
Rachael: Absolutely. And I'm thinking now there's a lot of plaid, and I'm trying to think of what an Airbnb would look like up there. And there's mounted fish and deer heads on the wall. That's just what people... It's just not the type of design that you and I are attracted to. And so, I wasn't exposed to a lot of that, but even without that exposure, I had a yearning to be in a city. From a young age I was like, "I'll live in a city." And when I was in high school, I was like, "I'm going to be a CEO girl boss and have a corner office."
And I think I was just misguided in what I wanted. Yes, I want to live in a city because of access, and culture, and diversity, and people, and food, and all the things that we love about living in a city, with the exception of public transportation, which we don't have here. I would love to have that. I yearned for something different without having ever been exposed to it. And so, I think it boils down to a curiosity, and I think curiosity is a through line in both of our lives and why we've become the people we are is because it's like, "I do want to know more about that and I want to explore that." And then we're constantly refining our path.
Lauren: I think your exposure to that must've been media, I'm guessing books that you read, TV shows, maybe movies. And I think that is one of the beautiful things about so many of us self-publishing on the internet now is you get to see so many different ways to live your life. It's really expanded what a fulfilled full life looks like, because now we're all... There's not just 10 media companies publishing different things. For all the ills of the internet, that is one of the positive things, I think.
********
Rachael: This episode is sponsored by Dress For Yourself, a three-part style course by me, Rachael Renae. In Dress for Yourself, I share how exploring my personal style helped me to show up as my authentic self. And in the course, you'll learn how to use personal style to build confidence, how to define your personal style, and how to incorporate play into your wardrobe. Visit Rachaelrenae.com. That's R-A-C-H-A-E-L-R-E-N-A-E.com\stylecourse to sign up.
********
Rachael: My mom and I were having a conversation a couple of years ago, and so as a reminder for anyone who doesn't have my life path meticulously mapped out, I went to engineering college after high school. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. My art teacher tried to give me to go to art school, but I had internalized somehow that artists didn't make money. At 12 years old I was like, "Well, I can't do that. I won't make any money." And no one ever explicitly said that, but it was just like-
Lauren: I bet you read something in a history textbook about how van Gogh was poor, and that imprinted in your mind.
Rachael: That, and just maybe the way that people talked about artists.
Lauren: Hundreds of tiny little comments or winces or looks, you do start to internalize that.
Rachael: Like, "What are you going to do with that?"
Lauren: Unless you have a parent who's an artist, or an uncle, or a kooky aunt, you really don't have exposure or any true validation, tangible evidence that you aren't going to be a starving artist because that's how societally we talk about it.
Rachael: And also, anyone who is kooky or weird, and is probably the people that I would want to spend time with now were shunned in those Midwestern traditional value type of places. So, they were... Hearing adults talk about other adults that I probably would've gravitated toward, but hearing them say, "Well, she is weird." I internalize that, like, "Oh, if you're weird and you're kooky and you want a creative, you want something that's non-traditional, you're going to be shunned by the people in your community." And again, I have no specific examples of this, but it's just what eventually formed in my head as an idea of, "I can't go to art school."
So, I went to engineering college, and then the college that I went to was across the street from a private art college. And I met a bunch of my friends because, of course, I was drawn to the freaks, and the people doing DIY shows, and punk culture and stuff. So, I was drawn to those people, and then I was like, "I want to switch. I want to go." And I remember bringing it up once with my mom, and then we never talked about it again. And I think I was looking for her to be like, "All right, let's do this. Let's switch, let's apply." And I was too afraid to do it on my own. So, because she didn't push, because it wasn't her dream, she was probably just like, "Oh, she met some boy she has a crush on and wants to go to that school. You're a mile away. Stay at the one you're at." She never said that, but that's what I am making up in my brain right now.
But I didn't push, and I stayed in engineering college, and I stayed for grad school. And my mom and I were having a conversation a couple of years ago, and she was like, on NPR they were asking like, "Is there one moment that you can think of where if you had answered differently, it would've changed the trajectory of your life?" And her answer was saying yes to me going to art school. She said that to me. I was like, "Your answer is about my life?" Which that is so sweet. But I was like, "Oh my gosh, that means so much to me that she sees now how much I wanted that." And I was like, "But it's okay, because I had to experience the things I've experienced to become the person that I am now. And my engineering career has provided me the leisure to explore my creative play and explore my creative vision."
So, I don't think that there are any necessarily wrong choices on our paths. We just learn and change, and there's no shame in changing paths. But that was really sweet and interesting, that I think she's seeing a lot of, listening and seeing a lot of what I post and share now and is thinking about how, "Oh yeah, she was a really creative, weird little Dennis Rodman free kid." And yeah.
Lauren: That's really sweet to hear. It's making me consider unblocking my father on Instagram, but I'm not going to yet. Yet. But that is sweet, because you want to give your parents the benefit of the doubt that they were just doing their best. And I think, we've talked about this in previous episodes about how, even if you have a parent who loves you and is supportive, talking with them about your hopes and dreams and big ideas, they might not always be the right person to go to with those things. And having a friend or a creative colleague, someone who's more at least, who speaks the same language of working towards similar goals or dreams, is more helpful in that context. But of course, we still want the support and approval somewhat of our parents.
Rachael: And I think that can be said for not just our parents, but our friends too, because depending on how diverse your friend group is, if you're the creative of the friend group and other people have more traditional jobs, if you're talking about your newsletter or you got to upload on YouTube, things that we do, they might not get it. And I also feel like sometimes it's hard to... If I'm really, really jazzed about a creative idea or a new offering that I have, and I'm trying to explain that to my family or a friend who has a more traditional job, it can sometimes be met with confusion, because they don't understand the process. It can sometimes be met with fear that projects as judgment, like, "Ooh, are you going to invest all that money into that project? Are you sure?" Because they're looking out, they're scared for your wellbeing.
Lauren: Comes from a good place.
Rachael: It comes from a good place, but even though it's well-intentioned, it can come as judgment, so then-
Lauren: It's not received well always, even if it comes from a good place.
Rachael: And so, it's hard sometimes. And I just talked about this on the internet, sometimes people can't see your vision and it comes across as judgment or disinterest because they don't understand. And that doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it. You got to be your own hype girl, and also find creative community and people that you can talk about those things with.
Lauren: Yes. And I think if anyone is struggling with their parents or community of origin not quite understanding what they do, or maybe even disapproving, finding a new creative home or a new even small community, even one or two people who understand what you do as a solid foundation of like, "Okay, I have some people in my corner," can make it easier to go forth and do the thing anyways. Because waiting for, or needing your parents' approval before doing a thing is a losing game. You're never going to get the green light before you do it.
Oftentimes, too, I think so much of my backstory too, of not wanting to let my parents down, is them being receptive to me going to art school, but a little skeptical and still wanting to prove that it was a good idea, because I did quote, unquote, "make it." But there also, I've talked about this on this podcast before, there's such a catch-22 of being a self-employed, working creative person, where you can hit all the success markers and then you still have to figure out how to stay there.
There was something really beautiful about the naivete of just like, "I'm just figuring things out," 10 years ago. And then once I achieved any notoriety or people are like, "Oh, Lauren's set and successful." And I'm speaking from what I think my dad thinks about me, it's like, "Oh, fuck, now I got to maintain it? I don't get to just stick around anymore." I don't know if I've said this on this podcast before, but right before I went to culinary school, I broke down in therapy with the epiphany. I was like, "Oh my God, I'm about to go to culinary school. I'm going to be in school part-time and working part-time." So, I had already intellectually planned for this like, "I'm going to be making less money." The new year rolled around and I was like, "Oh my God, I think my dad's going to love me less because I'm making less money."
Rachael: Oh.
Lauren: I know. And it's so silly to say out loud now. And I talked to him about it, because it sounds ridiculous, but it's genuinely how I felt. It's almost like the mini version of what we talk about societally, where you got to prove your worth, and one of the ways we prove our worth is like, "I can make money. I'm a good productive little worker."
Rachael: Absolutely.
Lauren: And that's not a great metric to use. And he laughed at me when I told him about it. But he was also like, he is self-aware enough where he's like, "I understand why you would feel that way, but I love you no matter what."
Rachael: And they do, but also there are expectations because they're people too. And so, even if they aren't expressing them, they're there.
Lauren: Oh, totally.
Rachael: And-
Lauren: I still feel some of it sometimes, but it's a lot of what you said about it's you in your head trying to get ahead of what you think your parents are going to say.
Rachael: That anticipatory thinking is what is holding me back or has been. I'm working on it. And my mom even said that yesterday to me, she was like, "I think sometimes you really consider our feelings maybe too much." And I don't know if that is from being a highly sensitive kid and just wanting to make sure everyone's okay. Definitely have people pleasing tendencies, but the anticipatory thinking is that's what I'm really grappling with, because I'm like, "No one even said it. No one even asked me to not be a creative or to reconsider this decision." But then also some of the decisions, I have been getting tattooed since I was 16 years old, and every tattoo that I've gotten, I've been like, "They're not going to like this." Maybe not in the last 10 years because they just know, now that I'm fully tattooed. But mom, if you're listening, I might get my face tattooed some day. Not big, just a little guy.
Lauren: Tasteful.
Rachael: Yeah, a tasteful face tattoo.
Lauren: It's a generational thing too. I think the way that our parents' generation felt about tattoos, and maybe culturally what they meant, and the kind of people who had them, it's changed.
Rachael: Absolutely.
Lauren: Especially as you're entering the creative world. Any in-house creative gig I've ever worked, the entire creative department has tattoos. If anything, not having tattoos now is the counterculture thing to do.
Rachael: I know. I feel like the younger generation is not getting tattooed because-
Lauren: No sex, no tattoos, no drugs, no alcohol.
Rachael: Losers. No, I'm just kidding. I call myself a wholesome little freak, because on the outside I feel like I look tough, especially in my all-black outfit today. I have green socks on. But you see me and I have tattoos, and if I'm wearing all black, normally I'm not, but I'm one of the softest human beings alive.
Lauren: You have a, "I love bugs," banner in your car.
Rachael: I do. I do. I love bugs. I love people. I am very, that is one thing that has been great about growing up in the Midwest is I feel like I'm very kind, and that is a Midwestern type of attitude, and I like that I have that. But wholesome little freak. Don't know why I said that.
Lauren: I was going to ask about doing the preemptive of what will my parents think with creative career stuff. But you mentioned with tattoos, you've probably reached a certain threshold where you're like, "They're probably not going to love this, but I'm going to do it anyways." Was there a switch that flipped? Or maybe the way you think about tattoos, you just wanted them badly enough that you're like, "I'm going to do it." It's almost like a rebellious spirit?
Rachael: Yeah. I think it was that. I think it was I wanted to signal to other freaks that I also was a freak, and find my community, which I was still trying. I was trying to do in college, because I, again, went to engineering college, so there weren't a lot of freaks. There were some, and I found more of my people at the art school across the river, and it was like what you were saying about your dad and how you thought, "If I make this much money, then it's okay." It was like, "As long as I can cover them up and still get my professional white collar job, it's fine." And so, I didn't start getting my arms tattooed until I was in my late 20s. So, all of my tattoos were on my legs, which I could cover, and I wore long pants.
And then, I remember when I got my first arm tattoo, my mom was like, "I thought you weren't getting your arms done." Not because she cared, but because we had come to this agreement that, "Okay, you can cover them up." And then I started getting my arms tattooed, and I remember she saw my back tattoo for the first time, we were in the pool, and she's like, "What the hell is that?" I was like, "Oh, it's just my big dinosaur." And now, it's like anyone with tattoos that you see regularly, I forget. I forget you have tattoos, I forget I have tattoos.
Lauren: You can't see any of my tattoos right now.
Rachael: Yeah, you are a wholesome little freak as well.
Lauren: A wholesome little lady.
Rachael: So, I think it's just I wanted them badly enough, and I set this bar, like, "It's acceptable as long as they're hidden." Just like, "Oh, that creative career is acceptable as long as I'm making enough money that's comparable to a quote, unquote, 'good reliable job.'" And these are just arbitrary bars, we could all lose our jobs tomorrow.
Lauren: Totally. Oh, my gosh.
Rachael: Corporate jobs and creative jobs, all of them.
Lauren: It's true. It's all made up. But we do have these conscious and subconscious, or unconscious, markers in our head of, like, "Okay, I'm good if," or, "I'm worthy if."
Rachael: And I think those bars that we're setting are where we need to start unpacking things for ourselves. And that's what I have been trying to do about this like, "Oh, I can't do this or I can't pursue this opportunity because I don't think my parents will think that's a safe bet, or something." It's never conscious. And then when I start unpacking why I am holding myself back, it's those intersections of the expectations that I think that other people have for me.
Lauren: To bring it all back to the parental thing of, "We just want what's best for you." Which is, I'd say broadly speaking, what most parents would say when they criticize any creative person's life choices, be it body modification, career path, the person you're dating, whatever it is, the city you want to move to, the business you want to start. I think that even if there's good intentions, we do it to ourselves where we're like, I related to what you were saying about, I did a thing to myself where I was like, "I'll only move back to New York when I'm making as much money as I was before culinary school." And then I realized, I was like, "To some extent that's out of my hands and I could be sitting here for a while."That doesn't seem like a good bar, rule to have set, even though it felt cozy to hold onto.
And I think there's an undertone a lot of times when we do stuff like that of, "Okay, if I reach this certain benchmark, whether it's Instagram followers, income goals, milestones that either we've set or society has set, then we'll do something." A lot of it seems to be related to the inner parent being like, "We just want you to be safe. We want you to be secure." And we're all in our mid-thirties now, or you and I are in our mid-thirties. We don't know how old you are, listener, but we're grown. We can take care of ourselves within reason.
I always have to take a step back and ask myself, "How risky is this actually? What is the worst that's going to happen if I move back to New York, if I take this risk, if I make this investment, if I want to do this thing?" Actually, looking at my finances and saying, "Okay, cash flow, net worth, all this stuff, can I make it work? Do I have to wait? Am I going to be destitute and on the street?" No, it's okay. And I trust myself to take care of myself and not be so reckless with my money, but I don't have to wait until I've hit a certain income goal to pursue my dream or to feel worthy of pursuing a thing I want to do.
Rachael: Absolutely. And I think that's our whole messaging on here is just try stuff and then reflect, because if you put it off until some milestone, you're taking away from the joy that you could be experiencing being in New York. Your friends, us will be sad, but I'm excited to come to see you, and I'm excited for you because you've been wanting this, and that's the right move for you. And I think that whether it's a move to another city or just the exploration of a new hobby, this same thinking, I feel like we stop ourselves at any level of life choice that we're making. Like, "Oh, I don't want to start a new hobby right now. What if I'm bad at it?" Okay, what if you are bad at it or what if you hate it? Great.
Lauren: Because you're trying to avoid criticism, you're trying to avoid pain. I think that we're over calibrating for the parental voice of what if you get hurt? What if something bad happens? It's like the overbearing parent who's like, "No, you can't go play because you could fall and scrape your knee." You got to go play and eat dirt and get sick and scrape your knee to live a life.
Rachael: I saw some Instagram therapists talking-
Lauren: Hell yeah.
Rachael: Talking about how so many of us who are getting diagnoses later in life, or even the Gen Z folks, are leaning too heavily on these labels of like, "Well, I have ADHD, so I can't do that." Instead of it being used to inform how you approach decisions and challenges, how folks are too easily giving up because they're like, "Well, I have depression, so I'm not doing that," or, "I'm autistic, so I'm not doing that." Because life is full of challenges, and if we don't practice our problem-solving skills and approaching challenges and solving them, then we're not building resilience to life.
And it was really interesting, because I feel like we've talked about different types of labels on here, not mental health diagnoses specifically, but how labels can be helpful in certain circumstances, and then actually detrimental in others when we're relying on them too much, and circling back to trying stuff. I think if we don't get comfy with failing and trying, we're never going to get to the life that we want to live. And I think that we so often see on Instagram, on the internet, the successes of people, but we don't see how many times they've failed and persevered and still chase their dreams. I'm rambling now and we're basically out of time. Any final thoughts before we wrap up?
Lauren: My final thoughts were similar to what you said about what you appreciate about growing up in the Midwest is that you're kind. I think the whole point of having this conversation was to examine just stories, or behaviors, or thought patterns that we inherited from our families and communities of origins, maybe even friend groups, whatever it might be, people you spend or spent a lot of time with. And just thinking about what is actually still helpful to you, because things like being raised with a sense of kindness, or sense of justice, or sense of duty to others. Those are good things and things you might want to hold onto and you're like, "I love that." But there might be some things or stories that you're like, "That's actually not that helpful to me anymore," and you might just want to be like, "I don't need it anymore." Leave it behind.
Rachael: And it all comes with just making sure that you're taking time to reflect on what's serving you and working on ditching what's not.
Lauren: Because I have always loved my go-getter-ness, my ambition. I realized, again, over the years that some of it is fueled by a desire to please my parents, and want success and status and achievement, so they're proud of me, but a lot of it is self-motivated too, and I am grateful for the practicality and pragmatism that my Chinese dad instilled in me. But I also, again, am aware of the pitfalls of only thinking that way. Similar to what you were saying about the diagnosis thing of it informs how you approach decision-making and how you move through the world, but it can't be the thing that guides your entire decision-making process. It just helps gives you some insight into how you are and how you operate.
Rachael: And us seeking validation from other people is normal.
Lauren: Yes, it's human.
Rachael: That's human. And wanting to please the people that love us is human. We just have to recognize when we're pushing past what is reasonable and maybe living our lives for other people or other people's expectations.
Lauren: Yeah. 100%.
Rachael: Wow. Great conversation. A couple of heavy hitter episodes to start off season three.
Lauren: A little pseudo creative therapy.
Rachael: Truly, which to me, so much of my creative practice is tied to my personal growth and the things I talk about in therapy. They're intertwined in my life. And I think in many people's lives.
Lauren: For sure. And for anyone who is drawn to this podcast, who listens to this podcast because they like my work or Rachael's work, I think that they'll be able to relate, because you and I come from, for lack of a better term, it's like a self-driven, self-motivated, self-ish standpoint, where my creativity is driven by my own wants and needs and my thoughts and sharing them, and I'm okay with that.
Rachael: Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren: My creativity is for me, and that has actually been the thing that's led me to the most commercial success, in a silly way. You wouldn't think normally that that was the inroad, because so much of the business advice is find a target market and then cater to that market, and it's like, "No, I'm going to follow my intuition and do what I want. Try to tune out the noise, but I'm human so I have ears so I can hear the noise." But we're doing our best to stay on the course that we set out for ourselves.
I was talking with someone the other night about how I feel like so much of my life and my creative life is defined by needing to come up with my own carrots to put on a stick, and then sticking the stick on my back and then following the carrot until I get it, and then finding a new carrot, sticking the carrot on the stick, which is such a silly metaphor. But that's what it feels like of really being in the driver's seat of your creative career and creative practice, and making sure you follow it, allowing yourself to follow it.
Rachael: And to stick with your carrot analogy. I think I liked what you said about finding a new carrot and sticking it on there, because if we set a carrot on a stick on our backs and we chase it forever, it may eventually not be the carrot that we should be chasing. It's important to set a goal for yourself, I think, and work toward it, but constantly reflect on if this goal is still what I want. Because it's okay if it changes, because your perspectives shift. You grow and you may not want the same things. We don't want the same things we wanted 10 years ago.
Lauren: And that's a beautiful thing.
Rachael: And that's lovely. Okay, Lauren, how can folks support us?
Lauren: Funny you should ask. You have to bear with us while we get comfortable, while I get comfortable plugging our brand new Patreon. If you want to support us, season three, we decided to launch a Patreon where we will release some bonus content ability to ask us questions, and maybe some other goodies, some discounts on our courses and products. So, you can head over to the link in our profile-
Rachael: Instagram bio, and probably-
Lauren: In the show notes.
Rachael: YouTube and the show notes. We'll link it everywhere.
Lauren: Whatever the details of wherever you're listening to this are, you'll find it there. I believe it's patreon.com/chaoticcreatives, to keep it easy. So, you can find us there. If it's not, then just search. Google it. Just Google it, and we will come up, probably.
Rachael: And if you're not able to support us financially, totally understand. If you can't, consider giving us a review, some stars, sharing the episode that resonates most with you, with someone who you think would like it.
Lauren: Yeah. Even just leave a comment saying that Rachael looks great in all black.
Rachael: And Lauren looks great in her shiny vegetable shirt.
Lauren: Thank you.
Rachael: Which is so cool.
Lauren: Thanks.
Rachael: What's the pink one? One under your right boob? Red cabbage?
Lauren: I think it's a cabbage. It's a red cabbage. Yeah.
Rachael: Yeah. Lovely. On that red cabbage note, thanks for listening/watching. We'll see you in the next episode.
Lauren: Bye.
Rachael: Bye.